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stoney321Okay, not entirely, but... I'm getting ahead of myself. Anybody catch HBO's hilarious! and satirical! and sexy! show about "Mormon" Polygamy? Hahaha! Because it's all that, and more! Lemme be upfront with definitions, so I don't get a lynch mob after me:
POLYANDRY/POLYAMOROUS relationship: brought about by a group of people interested in forging a relationship due to love, sex, admiration, large house and sturdy sheets. I have no problems with this. You're grownups, have at it, and take a multi-vitamin. What, you don't need a B Complex? You'll thank me later.
"MORMON" POLYGAMY: relationship brought about because "God" or the "prophet" has told this man to marry such and such women. Women have no property, no title, no worth other than to bring about a Righteous Dominion on Earth, and can be taken and passed around should the husband do something displeasing. This begins as soon as a girl is capable of menstruating.
Sound like I know what I'm talking about on #2? It's because I do, as some long-time flisters know. My family has polygamous members. My great-grandfather was one of the men "called of God" in the early days of the Mormon Church to live "The Principle." It's frickin' disgusting and horrible and cruel and on level with how the Taliban treats women. I lived just outside the largest stronghold of polygamists in Colorado City and helped try and get girls OUT. People are killed for even TALKING to non-plygs. That is not a flippant statement on my part. People die. Women are beaten. They are taken from schools after they've learned basic reading and writing. They are not allowed to dress like anyone else, listen to radio, TV, look at magazines... They are allowed to listen to the "prophet" speak. And have babies.
Now, about that whole living arrangement... #1 wife has ALL the female power, which is to say, not a lot. She orders the other sister-wives around. Some of them may even be her own daughters. Married to their father. Or uncle. Happens all the time. If a woman is nursing, menstruating, pregnant, or past menopause, no sex for her. Often times the man will just get a new "wife." Most times wives are handed to a man and told to marry as it is "the Lord's Will." He may be in his 60s, and she may be about 12. Again, happens all the time. There's a disproportionate number of girls to boys. Why? Because they don't WANT COMPETITION. Boys are killed or drummed out. Lots of desert to "lose" a child in. Yep. That's the lord's work, all right.
I did mention that I used to help and try and rescue these kids, right? These brainwashed young girls who didn't know they ever had a choice in love or life? Just in case some of you aren't believing ol' Stoney here. I don't know what the MO of this show is, but my hope is they aren't going to glamorize "Mormon" Polygamy. Happened in the 50s, and those SOBs were given federal grants to go back and start up again, after State Troopers in Utah and AZ. went to so much trouble to round the men up and jail them.
The prophet owns everything: everyone's house, everyone's car, everyone's business, the banks, the police, the firemen, the grocery store... It's called the Law of Consecration - the United Order. Which means, you piss the wrong person off and you're out. And your wife and kids and home are given to "whom the Lord has chosen." Anyone remember Elizabeth Smart? The guy that took her was a plyg that was drummed out of the commune. THAT is what they look like. That is their mindset.
THEY ARE NOT PEOPLE IN POLYAMOROUS RELATIONSHIPS. Because there is no CHOICE. There is no out, if anyone grows apart from the group. That being said, Chloe Sevigne's hair was spot on, minus the ever-present Angel Bang. And her clothes. But where were the G's? The ever-present painting of John Taylor over the mantel? And when they went to the commune, THAT is what it looks like. But they wouldn't be allowed back - the characters on the show - because they LEFT and you don't get to LEAVE.
Hmmm. Again, that show was lazy writing, IMO. The guys who wrote it (ahem) wanted the male fantasy of a harem, but want it to have Social Significance and so threw in the whole Mormon angle. Not impressed, and frankly, a bit worried. Okay. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. (If you want to see who the current "prophet" of the "church" is, google Warren Jeffs. Oh, he's building a compound in Eldorado, Texas right now and we Are Not Amused.)
*I say "Mormon" polygamy, because they outlawed it publicly in 1892. Although the President John Taylor did pull men aside and told them to practice in secret. I know this because my Great-great Uncle was one of those men, and if there's one thing Mormons know, it's genealogy and to keep a record. The LDS church excommunicates for the practice today.
POLYANDRY/POLYAMOROUS relationship: brought about by a group of people interested in forging a relationship due to love, sex, admiration, large house and sturdy sheets. I have no problems with this. You're grownups, have at it, and take a multi-vitamin. What, you don't need a B Complex? You'll thank me later.
"MORMON" POLYGAMY: relationship brought about because "God" or the "prophet" has told this man to marry such and such women. Women have no property, no title, no worth other than to bring about a Righteous Dominion on Earth, and can be taken and passed around should the husband do something displeasing. This begins as soon as a girl is capable of menstruating.
Sound like I know what I'm talking about on #2? It's because I do, as some long-time flisters know. My family has polygamous members. My great-grandfather was one of the men "called of God" in the early days of the Mormon Church to live "The Principle." It's frickin' disgusting and horrible and cruel and on level with how the Taliban treats women. I lived just outside the largest stronghold of polygamists in Colorado City and helped try and get girls OUT. People are killed for even TALKING to non-plygs. That is not a flippant statement on my part. People die. Women are beaten. They are taken from schools after they've learned basic reading and writing. They are not allowed to dress like anyone else, listen to radio, TV, look at magazines... They are allowed to listen to the "prophet" speak. And have babies.
Now, about that whole living arrangement... #1 wife has ALL the female power, which is to say, not a lot. She orders the other sister-wives around. Some of them may even be her own daughters. Married to their father. Or uncle. Happens all the time. If a woman is nursing, menstruating, pregnant, or past menopause, no sex for her. Often times the man will just get a new "wife." Most times wives are handed to a man and told to marry as it is "the Lord's Will." He may be in his 60s, and she may be about 12. Again, happens all the time. There's a disproportionate number of girls to boys. Why? Because they don't WANT COMPETITION. Boys are killed or drummed out. Lots of desert to "lose" a child in. Yep. That's the lord's work, all right.
I did mention that I used to help and try and rescue these kids, right? These brainwashed young girls who didn't know they ever had a choice in love or life? Just in case some of you aren't believing ol' Stoney here. I don't know what the MO of this show is, but my hope is they aren't going to glamorize "Mormon" Polygamy. Happened in the 50s, and those SOBs were given federal grants to go back and start up again, after State Troopers in Utah and AZ. went to so much trouble to round the men up and jail them.
The prophet owns everything: everyone's house, everyone's car, everyone's business, the banks, the police, the firemen, the grocery store... It's called the Law of Consecration - the United Order. Which means, you piss the wrong person off and you're out. And your wife and kids and home are given to "whom the Lord has chosen." Anyone remember Elizabeth Smart? The guy that took her was a plyg that was drummed out of the commune. THAT is what they look like. That is their mindset.
THEY ARE NOT PEOPLE IN POLYAMOROUS RELATIONSHIPS. Because there is no CHOICE. There is no out, if anyone grows apart from the group. That being said, Chloe Sevigne's hair was spot on, minus the ever-present Angel Bang. And her clothes. But where were the G's? The ever-present painting of John Taylor over the mantel? And when they went to the commune, THAT is what it looks like. But they wouldn't be allowed back - the characters on the show - because they LEFT and you don't get to LEAVE.
Hmmm. Again, that show was lazy writing, IMO. The guys who wrote it (ahem) wanted the male fantasy of a harem, but want it to have Social Significance and so threw in the whole Mormon angle. Not impressed, and frankly, a bit worried. Okay. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. (If you want to see who the current "prophet" of the "church" is, google Warren Jeffs. Oh, he's building a compound in Eldorado, Texas right now and we Are Not Amused.)
*I say "Mormon" polygamy, because they outlawed it publicly in 1892. Although the President John Taylor did pull men aside and told them to practice in secret. I know this because my Great-great Uncle was one of those men, and if there's one thing Mormons know, it's genealogy and to keep a record. The LDS church excommunicates for the practice today.
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no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 06:05 am (UTC)Haven't seen it yet, but my mom has plans to watch it so I'll have a better response later.
But ... I'm kind of very shocked that this show has been made. It's a little on the scary side, frankly, because of all the reasons you've mentioned.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 06:10 am (UTC)Real life = scary.
That's it - I'm staying in bed for the rest of my life.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 06:12 am (UTC)(And remember: I was raised Mormon, and it is a cult. A well-regarded cult, but a cult. SORRY ANY ACTIVE MEMBERS. It is.)
Mostly, my fear is that this show makes the lifestyle look intriguing, and then legislation that is trying to get passed to outlaw some of the more abhorrent elements (like under-aged marriages to elderly family members - there is no incest in this lifesstyle, you see. It's all good. Um....) I worry that there will be compacency and confusion as to what it really is.
Argh. Sorry! This is one of my few hot buttons.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 06:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 06:16 am (UTC)And yeah, I share that fear -- it's a cult. It's not that there aren't sane members out there, but this is the group of people that raised a five year old to ask me where my horns were. I'm sorry, that's not sane. That's not rational. And some of their extreme practices, like what you mention and more, god, are disgusting.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 06:20 am (UTC)Yeeeeeaaaaaah.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 06:24 am (UTC)But thank you for the post.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 06:25 am (UTC)::blinks::
Whaddawhonow?
no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 06:27 am (UTC)SO. MUCH. RAGE.
I have to go slash two of the prophets now. *subversive liek wo* *evidence: icon*
no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 06:28 am (UTC)If you read in Genesis (we'll stick with the King James standard version) after Cain smites his brother, and lies to God about it, a mark is placed on Cain that can be seen from great distances.
So... along with some Pentecostals and Southern Baptists, this is interpreted at where blacks come from. THIS IS A PART OF WHY THERE IS STRIFE. The whole KKK calling them "mud people" and all.
It's disgusting.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 06:29 am (UTC)OMG, BDSM kink fic with Spencer W. Kimball in leathers and Brigham Young holding the whip OMG I am going to be murdered in my SLEEP.
(did you watch it??)
no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 06:31 am (UTC)It's VERY creepy.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 06:34 am (UTC)Yeah. Mayan culture, Incas... all descendants of the Jews to explain the plates. (Um, we'll just ignore for now the complete lack of evidence in DNA, and the fact that the Book of Mormon mentions steel and horses in pre-Columbian civilization. Ahem.)
DO NOT GET ME STARTED ON BYU. I turned down a full ride to them when I was 18. They TEACH THAT THERE IS A SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR THE WHOLE DESCENDANTS OF JEWS THING.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 06:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 06:38 am (UTC)Ahem.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 06:38 am (UTC)That's cause you are a smart, smart woman. Also, you aren't brainwashed the way I think half of them are. And again, I mean the ones who are insanely strict because it's not like I haven't met Mormons who are ... um. Not necessarily normal, but at least not scary.
Every religions got their quirks but Mormons absolutely scare me the most. Because it's so insanely rationalized and institutionalized and omg they think there's scientific fact?! I came from Poland, Russia, and Hungary. That's where a hell of a lot of Jews on this continent come from. NOT FROM CENTRAL AMERICA, omg!
The human sacrifice should probably act as a clue. Yanno, that thing almost all the peoples of the area in question practiced for a really, really long time, the thing that Judiasm is ABSOLUTELY AGAINST?
Also, I'm abusing caps, sorry :)
no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 06:48 am (UTC)See I'm a Catholic, but I was brought up to use my head! And incidentally picked up a fair bit of theology etc. and I cannot understand how people can believe in stuff that makes less sense than... um, can't think of an example. I just want to hit someone over the head with a big heavy baseball bat!
(Yes the Catholic Church has its own problems, but at least most of its memebers are sane!)
no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 06:50 am (UTC)And you use caps here all you want. Believe me, it's okay. Now, for anyone who might be casually reading this, I should clarify a few things:
My family came over with the Martin Handcart Company. (Mormons know what that means).
They live in Wasatch Valley, and were some of the original polygamists and members.
My grandfather (2 wives, 15 kids, 169 grandchildren, on and on) got his priesthood from Lorenzo Snow. (again, this makes sense to LDS folks).
My family is still active in the church.
I, however, am not. At all. Have no belief, respect, admiration for the organization. That is not saying I think the people are wack. I know what a great job of subterfuge and CYA the church does to keep you thinking you're thinking, but you're not thinking at all. (again, this makes sense to a few.)
no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 06:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 06:56 am (UTC)Oh, the Spence. He understaaaaaaaaands your/my/everyone's pain. The kinky bastard.
no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 07:06 am (UTC)I mean are you KIDDING ME?? He's a virgin fetishist, too. o_0
(Oooh, Gilbert Grape breaks me up inside. Very good, and very painful. I saw The Libertine! Johnny: fantastic. Jack: hideous in places, and hates Depp's character. Haha!)
no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 07:14 am (UTC)I've seen a few documentaries on real Mormon life and I can't watch anymore. I don't understand that way of thinking and it just makes me angry. It's sort of like watching movies/documentaries featuring the KKK. Uh-uh, can't deal.
I can't even imagine what it was like to be raised in that lifestyle. However, you seem to have escaped unscathed. *hugs*
no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 07:19 am (UTC)(I know. Damn. THE LIBERTINE. I still have not seen it and die a little inside each day, because of it. IS Johnny fantastic? I thought it seemed from the trailers that he was. How is Jack hideous? DETAILS.)
no subject
Date: 2006-03-13 07:22 am (UTC)Please forgive me for asking a stupid question but I have several Mormon friends in Michigan, who act nothing like this and don't really seem to identify with the Mormons in western states. Is there a break in the church or are these people just unique?
**SPOILER ALERT FOR THE LIBERTINE***
Date: 2006-03-13 07:26 am (UTC)And Jack - the first shots of him are in this HORRIBLE Little Lord Fauntleroy curled wig at his shoulders and bad face makeup and I gasped, then later he's in normal 17th century hair and it's LONG and you can't see his beautiful eyes, but the voice- ungh. And he snarks at Depp and it's glorious and PLAYS Depp's character on stage - heh.
Personally, there are things that bugged me - the camera is CONSTANTLY on close-up mode, and while I get that they are going for natural lighting, skin, etc., there's a way to do it and not make the audience feel claustrophobic - see The Girl With a Pearl Earring for an example of how to use natural lighting, makeup, etc.
and JackDav isn't confident with his body/voice when he plays a "compassionate" or "quiet" character, and it bugs me as an actor, because he SHINES when he gets to be mean/nasty/cruel/snarky, and it's so elementary! But I still love him. Heh.