Very important poll for you - no, really!

[stoney321]

So, I love doing polls, because I actually learn a lot about my flist and the world around me. *cue flutes and scampering bunnies* But really, I do. And I love when people realize that I'm just a wonk with a keyboard and don't get all bowed up about accuracy, etc., as if I am being scientific or academic in any way. HINT: I'm not. I'm just a curious journaler with a thirst for knowledge.

There's a problem I've been faced with recently, and I'm interested in the general/median opinion on this particular subject. Hang in there with me.

Parent A gives Child C a vehicle for their birthday, a vehicle that is fairly new, energy efficient, and well maintained. Child C cannot drive car without an adult for several more weeks due to a quirky state law, but Child C often wants to practice their driving throughout the week. Parent A has their own vehicle, albeit an inefficient car, gas-wise.

The problem: Parent A continually takes Child C's car to work, to run errands, etc. because "it's energy efficient and it's just sitting there," often not asking permission because they "bought it." This leaves Child C without the opportunity to practice their driving with Parent B.[Poll #1918724]

I want to stress that Child C is INCREDIBLE grateful and gracious about their gift, so ixnay that from the discussion.

IN OTHER NEWS: I want to remind the public at large that at Hey, Don't Judge Me, we exist to be a place where fans can happily and safely talk about things we love. Not that people can't be critical, just don't be a dick about it. HAVING SAID THAT, my writers work very hard and for NO MONEY at what they do. And if someone leaves them a jerky or hateful comment (especially when it's clear that person is just furthering their agenda without even bothering to understand my writer's POV) they will be called out publicly, and then they will be banned.

I want people to feel safe when they get into discussions. I want people to have ONE PLACE on the internet where they can love things without fear of being made fun of or attacked for loving something in a fannish way. More than that? I want my writers to feel safe expressing their fannish love. That's the whole point.

So for all of you that respect that (either by joining in or staying away) THANK YOU.

Comments

[shadowvalkyrie.livejournal.com]

Ah, the smell of parental dominance displays in the morning...

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Ha. More spousal dominance than parental. :)

[cindergal.livejournal.com]

We recently bought a "new" used car for cindergirl's use, but made it clear to her that it is not her car, it is our car that we will let her use at our discretion. :-) Because that's just how we roll - and we have another kid that will be driving it in a year or so, too. BUT, if it had been a gift, then it would be her car, IMO, and that's that. However, I can see cinderhub very much resembling Parent A in that scenario. ;-)

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

I think the way you handled the car is fantastic, actually. This particular car for #2 was given to her, to be HER car. (Her brother doesn't have access to drive it, explicitly stated.)

It's making #2 very unhappy to not have access to it to practice during the day, and I don't know that she feels like she can say, "But you gave it to me?"

I'm of the mindset that a gift given is just that: a gift. THANK YOU for your input!

[sdwolfpup.livejournal.com]

I think what matters is talking with Child C about what the car actually means and the child and the parents laying down the ground rules so that everyone agrees. It sounds like it was given as a gift TO the child and for the child to "own," so it's the child's car, which means Parent A is in the wrong here for just randomly taking it without ever asking. Especially if Child C needs to practice! But if those rules are laid out and all parties agree, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's just a matter of actually defining who has primary "ownership" of the use of that car and then that person gets to decide who gets to use it when.

[entrenous88.livejournal.com]

I'm still in dazed-zone right, with my brain consumed by FOG,, so I checked off the last two just to cover all my bases (and mess up science).

But basically, if the car was given outright to belong entirely to the kid, I don't think Parent A should drive that car at all *unless* it's a matter they've discussed and pre-arranged with the Kid (that the Kid agrees it's fine whenever OR only in particular cases when asked first). But basically just that, it's the kid's car, it's theirs whether they can use it or not, and anyone else using it is pretty much due to the kid's generosity and beneficence, and not something taken for granted or even expected to accompany a rote asking for permission.

Sorry. I CAN'T BRAIN! And yet I still have opinions. *cries*

[jerusha]

This is pretty much what I was going to say. I was "given" a car in high school, but understood that it was still my parents' car, and I was driving it because they didn't want to chauffer me around. When my folks gave me a car as a college graduation gift, it was understood to be MY car, and if Mom or Dad had taken it without asking me, I would have been very upset.

And you know, even if it's not HER car (which it sounds like it is in Stoney's case), it's good to model behavior that you want to see, i.e. asking permission to use something that at least nominally belongs to someone else. That's just good manners. Even if it's a shared car, giving the other person a heads up is the right thing to do.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Yes yes - when it's "This is bought for the family and is the one, when you ask to borrow a car, that will be yours after approval given" that's one thing.

...but this came with a red bow and the explicitly stated, "This is yours."

These are all great responses and things for me to think about, THANK YOU!!

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Yep. I think a family meeting to reestablish what the rules were (and what will be agreed upon) is in order.

<3

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

And I basically agree with you 100%! I'm a believer in a gift given is precisely that: the other person's to have and do what they will.

I think you have brained quite well here, actually!! <3 <3

And now I bake cookies in your honor, because who doesn't want cookies baked in their honor? THEY'RE COOKIES! <3

[altyronsmaker.livejournal.com]

I must have grown up in a harsh environment. If my parents had had the money to get me a car, I'd have known from the get go that they would have the discretion as to how it would be used. It might be mine, but they paid for it, and if they needed it, they would certainly use it. I grew up knowing that nothing (except my clothes) belonged to me until *I* paid for it myself.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

That's how I grew up, too. Frankly, that's how my husband grew up. We're in a position financially where we can provide a car to our straight A, hard working, very considerate child because a) with my son's health issues, it would be TREMENDOUS to have another driver around and b) she's looking for a job

The point is that someone was given something outright, told it was theirs, and then that same person is handwaving it.

It's fair that you have a different perspective on this, that's the point of the poll. (But it did make me feel like I needed to defend getting her a vehicle.)

[jooniper-pearl.livejournal.com]

I grew up the same way. I was actually in the same position as Child A. I was given a car for my 16th birthday by a family member that was not my parents. But b/c I was not a confident enough driver, I was not permitted to drive it until I was 17. My uncle drove his truck into one of those orange concrete pillars in a parking lot. (he didn't see it the sun was right in his face, but whatevs) I was *informed* he would be driving my car until his truck was repaired. I was not asked, my opinion was not considered, he just informed me and took my keys. Needless to say, I was PISSED and it changed our relationship. We are no longer as close as we used to be. Anyone that would just inform me they were taking what belonged to me and not ask, yeah, no. There should be a family meeting where Child A is able to express her feelings without being made to feel like having those feelings is wrong and Parent A should be able to appologize and maybe set up specific practice time with the agreement they would take the car on Day 1, 2 & 4, but not on 3 and 5. Or whatever. But Child A needs to have some sort of control over the situation. Just my .02

[fiveandfour.livejournal.com]

It's kind of funny how the people we feel most comfortable with (family or otherwise) are the ones for whom we do the least as respects honoring the Golden Rule. It's even more extreme when it comes to the parent-child relationship: behaviors which are usually "right" or "wrong" get all muddled up because of the relative power each person in the relationship owns.

In this case, I know as the parent who bought the car, I would *absolutely* be tempted to go with the "I bought it" logic and want to use the car when it was going to be just sitting around anyway.

However, some recent events and pondering for my own family brought me to the conclusion that because a child's model for all relationships is the one that exists with his or her parents, the fair thing to do is not abuse that power differential.

I would be pretty steamed if my husband took my car without advance notice (I've got *stuff* in there - what if I need it?), especially if it were newly mine and I was still in the honeymoon phase, so why would I not think a kid would feel any different? Once a child reaches a certain age, provided that there aren't issues that would preclude it (health, disciplinary issues, immaturity, etc.), it seems only right to demonstrate the same respect for their point of view and feelings as I want demonstrated for mine.

Plus, if I want my child to take ownership of her possessions - treat them with respect, maintain and clean them, deal with the negative aspects of owning that thing and not just enjoy the positive aspects - I think that sense of ownership can be severely undercut if I exercise rights of imminent domain with little to no recognition of her rights as the property owner.

So. I think it's wrong to take without asking, though I certainly understand the mindset of the parent.

[altyronsmaker.livejournal.com]

Oh. *facepalm* I apologize for coming across as judgemental. I wasn't coming from that kind of place at all - more like it never would have occurred to me to question my parents.

I think it's good that you give her the room to do so.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

YES TO THIS. Totally agree with the discussion, plans, agreement, all of it.

(And I would have been pissed about the car/uncle situation too!) :(

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

#2 def. doesn't believe she can question her father, which is what's problematic for me. If we want our children to act like responsible adults, we need to act like it (and respect other's feelings, etc.)

We're getting ready to send these suckers out into the wild, so I want them to have as many teachable life experiences under their belts in a safe environment as I can, you know?

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

"because a child's model for all relationships is the one that exists with his or her parents, the fair thing to do is not abuse that power differential"

I want to have that tattooed across my heart.

Basically, everything you've said here is plus 1, *click* like, hugging it to my bones in agreement.

[dovil.livejournal.com]

Child C needs to piss all over the car inside and out to assert territorial rights.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

this is why I keep you: straight, to the point, and easy to do. Just like your mom. Wait, that's my mom.

[calliecat.livejournal.com]

I know this isn't quite the point... but the reason I answered like I did was because my first thought was - why doesn't parent B just take parent As car for test drives when Parent A is in child Cs car? The point being that Child C just needs to learn how to drive - what does it matter what car she learns in? Now once child C is a fully licensed/insured driver - all of this changes and everyone should obviously get permission from child C before taking her car.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

:)

Because Parent A'a car is a giant, huge truck and Child C needs to practice driving in a normal sized vehicle that she'll be taking her exam in. Child C has been driving my SUV, but it's not easy for a first time driver to handle such large vehicles.

[canuckpagali.livejournal.com]

Here's my view.

In some families that car might be viewed as the child's asset. In others, regardless of gift status, the car might be considered a family asset.

If it's viewed as the child's asset, then the child determines how it is used.

If it's the family's asset, then the family needs to decide on the rules for its use.

If clear rules haven't been established, then people who wish to use it need to consult with their fellow family members prior to each and every use of the asset. If no family members are available for consultation at the time someone wants to use it, too bad so sad, the car stays in the driveway. Absence is not consent.

I have sympathy for your plight, because I have an otherwise wonderful spouse that tends to automatically and impulsively put energy conservation above other considerations. He's also rather terrible at consulting others. He's been slow to understand why this is a problem but, over time, is starting to get better. But it's taken a lot of persistence on my part.

If this is getting to be a serious thorn in the side then, in all seriousness, I suggest sitting everyone down and setting some rules. In writing.

[bienegold.livejournal.com]

If it's getting in the way of planned practice time, that's a problem, but otherwise meh.

[entrenous88.livejournal.com]

Cookies, yay!

This is the thing with a state of mind like this -- I can think I'm being sorta kinda clear but my verification methods are like 85% off. So I'm glad to hear what I said was sense-making in this case!

Cookies! You always know what I like, Stoney! <33333

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

"If clear rules haven't been established, then people who wish to use it need to consult with their fellow family members prior to each and every use of the asset. If no family members are available for consultation at the time someone wants to use it, too bad so sad, the car stays in the driveway."

And tonight we are sitting down and writing up a contract after hammering out details that are fair to all concerned so there will be no confusion. :)

<3 Thank you!

[rocketlaunching.livejournal.com]

I think Child C deserves another present for taking this issue with grace.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

(Child C is such a good kid, I swear. I seriously lucked out with that one.)

<3

[pyro-semi.livejournal.com]

Maybe when Parent A goes to run errands Child C can tag along and be the designated driver? That way Child C is getting the practice they want and Parent A is getting stuff done.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Ha, Parent B has been doing that very thing! Parent A is taking the car to work, to golf, to run errands...

[kuzu-no-ha.livejournal.com]

Yes!!!

[bienegold.livejournal.com]

I should note that we always treated cars as semi-communal property, so my opinion may be very invalid.

[canuckpagali.livejournal.com]

I know some people might find this excessive, but I swear, sometimes it works.

[elizardbits.livejournal.com]

where is the option for SEND THE BABBYS TO THE WORKHOUSE

IT WAS GOOD ENOUGH FOR DICKENS

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

BECAUSE IT'S NOT AN OPTION LIZ THEY JUST GO TO THERE.

If they want to eat, they fucking do.

[lissysadmin.livejournal.com]

Stoney, I think you are one of those people who are absolutely incapable of being unfair, even when your loyalties are SO apparently divided. <3 I do hope for your sake that your Family X members are able to move to more generally acceptable and mutually sympathetic positions on this subject. And bring on the fancy sandwiches! (And sometime, you must divulge the Poll numbering system - over 1 million 900 thousand polls? I am exhausted just thinking about it.)

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Oh, I can be unfair! If it's about my kids, I go all Mama Bear to the point of not seeing reason (which is why I wanted to get a general consensus on this topic, to make sure I wasn't blinded by my adoration of my kids).

A conference didn't happen last night, so I'm making sure it happens today when all parties return from the day's activities. I want everyone to be in complete agreement as to how this should be handled so there's no animosity over the summer. <3

(Wait, I don't understand what you're asking re: poll numbering?)

[poshcat.livejournal.com]

You've already received some excellent advice, but here's my two cents anyway (although we have no more pennies in Canada, so I'll have to scrounge a couple American ones from the bottom of my purse).

Mr Posh would do exactly the same thing, and I would react the exact same way as you...although my kids would not be quite as willing to stay quiet and accept it, I do believe. At this point I don't bother to say anything to Mr Posh, as I've come to the conclusion that he's like a child himself and has to learn from the natural consequences of his actions rather than from me nagging him. Therefore, when the girls don't respect him because he doesn't respect them, when they yell at him because he yells at them, when they give him the cold shoulder when he wants hugs and love because he's unloaded his dripping sarcasm when he chose not to control his temper...then what does he expect to happen???

When they were little I protected the living daylights out of them from his anger, damn the consequences to my marriage. Now they're older and I just talk to them afterward about their dad's temper, and point out that he loves them to bits (which he does). So far, they're philosophical, if not somewhat bitter.

Haha, it seems I have no advice after all. Um...get everyone on the same page, no matter what that page may be. Also, drink more.

Poll numbering

[lissysadmin.livejournal.com]

Please tell me that
a) LJ numbers the polls, or
b) you use a random number generator or
c) you have written 1,918,724 polls yourself and are actually a Time Lord.

(Which would explain a lot about how you seem to get SO much more
accomplished than I ever do.). :D

Re: Poll numbering

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

OH!!

Yes, LJ numbers the polls!!! :D