In which I piss people off. Again.

[stoney321]

Did you know today is National Day of Hope? And that April is Child Abuse month? Meaning, "quit it, ya big meany," not "ollie ollie in come free." And that most states that haven't done so already are trying to pass bill that "clearly" define marriage. How are these two related? Well, I'll tell you.


For those that have been around my LJ for a while, you should remember that my father's family is devout Mormon. Meaning, came over with Brigham Young in the 1840s. Got the call to polygamy. Have (are currently) served (-ing) in the Presidency of the Mormon church. Did you catch that polygamy bit? I have a strong feeling that most people around here don't know much about polygamy, aside from a few anecdotal bits printed in the paper on occassion, etc. The public face of the Mormon church denounces polygamy, but they secretly continued practicing it until the 1930s when the public found out and got pissed off all over again. Modern Mormons revile polygamy today, but it's because of the black eye it gives the church. The state of Utah (which is the Church, don't kid yourself) rarely goes after their flagrant abuse of the law.

In a nutshell, polygamy is child abuse. I lived near, worked with, helped, rescued, and fought against polygamy while living in Southern Utah. In fact, I was 15 miles from the largest polyg community, Colorado City (also known as Hilldale and/or Short Creek, depending on who you talk to.) You know that saying, "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed?" Well, they live by that. The leader of the group determines who gets to marry which girl. Let's say Hezekiah, 63, sees a pretty young thing with her momma at the store. PYT is 12. The "prophet" (as their leader is called) says God wants them to marry. By the way, Hezekiah is her Step-Dad, Step-Uncle, and also a cousin. Because there are only so many ways 1300 people can join up in a community before the Family Tree begins to look like the Family Vine. And when one man dies, his wives are passed out amongst the men of the community, regardless of relation.

So she is taken from her home, forced to "marry" him (read: lie there while he rapes her) and give him babies. If she fights, if she shows displeasure, she's packed off and sent to Canada, Mexico, or GUESS WHERE NOW? Texas. Now there is a HUGE ranch (and I'm talking Texas huge - I have no idea where they got the money in oil country to buy such a big plot of land) in western Texas where they are trying to build a huge community to rival those in Bountiful, Alberta and Colorado City, AZ. (Or Hilldale, UT, if you stand off Main Street.)

So: the state of Texas is trying to force these guys out, or at least out of hiding so they can be arrested because there is sexual abuse, slavery, child abuse, and murder happening there. Which means the state of Texas is re-defining the law on marriage for the books. You may see where this is headed.

While I FULLY SUPPORT routing out polygamists (and don't kid yourself. This is not anything noble, anything spiritual... If you haven't been around it, you just don't know how fucking ugly it REALLY is.) it disturbs me that these laws are going to hurt many of my gay friends who DESERVE to have fair laws giving them the rights as legally married couples. It could hurt their chances to adopt children. All of which saddens me greatly. I firmly believe that if a person, or persons, regardless of being gay, straight, black, white, polka-dotted, Buddhist, atheist, devout Catholic, want to take a child into their home and love it, nurture it, and raise it up in the atmosphere of "family," that person(s) should be allowed to do so.

Notice the gratuitous use of the word "love." Not controlling, not cutting that child off from the world, teaching them X and Y people are evil or bad or wrong... My grandma (mother to 15) said you can't go wrong with kids if you just simply love them. I believe that in my bones.

As voting day draws closer here in Texas, more information is coming to light about these fundamentalists and the bills being written. And there are several Gay & Lesbian groups aligning themselves with the polygs, simply because they need to not be excluded from having marital rights, and I understand the panic. BUT. Please. Those of you on my flist that are homosexual: do not align yourself with child abusers. I personally have helped take young girls out that have been raped repeatedly by their fathers, their uncles, random "leaders" in the church because God told them to "raise up a righteous generation."

Don't group yourself with people who actually ARE deviants. Being homosexual is just a part of who you are biologically. You love someone, you want to have a life with that person, and they happen to be of the same sex. Polygamy is about patriarchal control. About using (literally) the fear of God to make a woman submit to a life where she has no choice. NO CHOICE! And is forced to become a servant of the man's other wives. They live a life where independant thought will get you removed from all family, never to be seen again, or to be killed. I am not exaggerating.

I'm shaking with the thought of the lovely people I know (who happen to be homosexual) being lumped in with these abusers and murders who claim God wants them to act this way. How can we separate these two things? Is there any hope? I believe one day that being a homosexual will not bar you from rights afforded to everyone else. But to me, aligning yourself with these wackadoos underscores what the right-wing fearmongers try and teach: homosexuals are deviants. We can't let that happen.

How can we help the Gay Rights movement and not include these child-abusers (and groups like NAMBLA, another child-abuse sanctioning group)? Any and all suggestions are welcome. But bear this in mind: my great-grandfather was a polygamist. Please, PLEASE do not try and tell me what polygamy is (unless you have managed to keep it secret that you are from a polyg background, then by all means: talk away).

If you want an indepth look, pick up In My Father's House about the Allred family, written by one of my friend's sister (both of whom escaped, and both have a price on their head for leaving the "faith.") And of course, an interesting book (albeit it mind boggling for those not aware of how the LDS church works - LOTS of info in this one) is Under The Banner of Heaven which discusses the violence inherent in the church and its off-shoot, i.e. the Fundamentalist polygamists. Think Elizabeth Smart. "God" told David and Wanda (who was commanded to obey her husband) to make Elizabeth his wife. Did you know he tried to kidnap her cousin, too?

Your thoughts, your ideas: go just below here. I welcome all in the spirit of pulling the thorn out.

[ETA]: JUST hung up the phone from someone in Records at the church office in SLC. Wanting to confirm my membership. Had my maiden name. Laughed (gently) and asked if they could update their records to show I was an apostate. She got quiet and asked me to think about it. How friggin' creepy is that? The call, not the nice elderly woman wanting to make sure I was counted among God's flock.

Comments

[julia-here.livejournal.com]

Having gotten sideswiped, early in life, by second generation descendants of people who'd left Amana when the "amatory" parts of that community were outlawed, I have much to think and little to say about the horrors of pious child abuse.

But: ten to one the way they afforded the land for the ranch was because the sellers retained mineral rights.

Which is to say, since we hold a peppercorn interest in the rights to Anadarko Deep Basin Petroleum Rights: the bad guys take advntage of whatever laws they can bend. Like the good polygamous conservatives in (draw a 500 mile circle centered on Hilldale, UT) who support most of their "wives" and their children on AFDC and food stamps. Like a polygamist in my own state who took advantage of no-fault divorce, and went out-of-state to get around laws here which limit age and consanguity for marriage. Something about those who belong to the darkness being more wise in their generation than the children of the light?

In the long run, those who shelter and educate the victims of the system, and those who enforce the existing laws to their fullest extent, are going to do more good than trying to custom-tailor marriage law to prevent situations that are already illegal.

Julia, thinking on the ways in which people use religion as an excuse to do evil

[unfolded73.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that the big difference between acceptable marriage (gay or straight) and the type of polygamy you describe is consent. Is it an oversimplification to say that marriage should be nothing more and nothing less than a contract between consenting adults? It seems that that is the banner the gay rights folks should be flying.

Just another example of how fundamentalist religion of any kind fucks everything up. Cause when it comes down to it, if three (or more) otherwise regular grown-ups decided they needed to all be married to each other, I would scratch my head, but ultimately I guess I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's when religious wackos want to subjugate others, especially minors, that we have a problem. In other words, it sounds like the problem is not the polygamy per se, it's that the polygamy is being used as a method of keeping all the women in the community under the heal of the men.

"Pious child abuse." That made me sit back.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I could go on about this for hours, but if you asked a Utahn what (exactly) about polygamy pisses them off, it's the abuse of the welfare system. You'll drive into the plyg communities and see 16,000 sq. foot homes, but will leave the tar paper up on one side, thus skirting paying property taxes (because the house isn't finished) and then every wife but the first (wince it isn't legal, they are unmarried mothers) gets huge welfare checks, food stamps, free medical care, but the fathers, women and children all work. But they work for cash, so no income on the record.

And they all thumb their noses at gov't, so they pay no taxes, don't get drivers licenses, SSNs, and on and on. But they have no problem taking that same Wicked Government's money. It's a principle called "bleeding the beast."

And all of this (including my post and your comment) is protected because God told them it was okay.

And you are probably right on the mineral rights... Although THAT is coming into question as well.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

You've hit it for me: CONSENTING ADULTS.

Obviously, a man in his 60s, who holds ownership of the land a family is on, telling the father that he will be "cast out, and all his property (which includes his family in their definition) shall be taken from him" should be not give his pre-pubescent daughter to so and so in marriage is not even in the same COUNTRY as consenting.

And these girls are taught from the beginning of their life that they exist for the pleasure of men and to bring babies into the world. Woe unto those that are barren.

But polygamy IS a problem, in and of itself. I just hate that it gets lumped in with other's legitimate beefs. Or the ACLU comes in (albeit well meaning) and says they have the right to live their lives the way their religion dictates. So, blood atonement and slavery are okay because their god says so? *shakes head*

I'm so glad you commented. Consenting Adults should be the contract language. Yes.

[sdwolfpup.livejournal.com]

I have nothing useful to add, I just wanted to say that I've never really realized what the Mormon practice of polygamy entailed and it's shocking and I'm glad you posted about it.

[elucidate-this.livejournal.com]

i agree with unfolded that the issue is consenting adults.

i know people in poly-relationships that would probably love to get them state recognized (or at least more socially accepted), but they are worlds away from polygamy as it is most frequently practiced.

i have to wonder if the gay rights groups fully know what they are aligning themselves with. i think there is a definite perception that polygamy is a thing of the past. i grew up in MA and all the mormons i knew were horrified by the notion of polygamy and fully in denial that it ever happened anymore as part of mormonism.

i believed them.

i was unaware that it was still a wide-spread problem until reading this post. thanks for posting this it's really interesting and eye-opening.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

It IS shocking. Here I was, a good little Mormon girl from Texas, off to school in Utah and (knew a bit of the past, as told to me from my family members with their perma-rose colored glasses) meet these poor women who had to change their name, lose their children (they were 20 and had five kids already) and never speak to their family again because they left "the faith."

If you have any desire to read the books I mentioned, they are amazing in their detail and in the fact that this is currently happening. WOW.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Let me re-iterate: modern devout Mormons do NOT practice polygamy. They loathe it. Mainly because of it's stain on the church, and also for the drain on the welfare system. But I get angry they they don't do more to root it out. It's the ugly red-stepchild of the church that they just don't talk about, and therein lies a big part of the problem.

I wonder if they know what they are getting into, as well. I would think they can't, or (sadly) that they are so desperate that anything that can keep their heads above water will be clung to.

Which is why I want to know what I can do to help further the cause of Gay Rights, but not have groups like plygs hang on to them like barnacles.

Another good book to read is "No Man Knows My History" by Fawn Brodie about Joseph Smith. It's considered the best biography of the man by (almost)all accounts. (re: Mormons who think Joseph Smith was divine and without blame do not like hearing of his real life. They want the glorified version of their Saint. And I should know, I was one of those types back in the day.)

[cityphonelines.livejournal.com]

Ok, before this, polygamy just squicked me, I knew the fundamentals (inbreeding and betrothed lil halfsistercousins) but I had never really thought about it. Mostly because, being Catholic, I've had my own child abusers to damn to hell. I just can't believe that people (read: women), no matter how they were raised, can allow their children to go through the horrors that they themselves have endured. Boggles my brain. Hurts my heart.

Now, see, I personally don't give a rat's ass about marriage. I've never seen myself as someone who would get married. It just ain't me. Of course, as a Texan I realize that if I live with someone for, what is it? 2 yrs? 3 yrs? you're already considered married by common law...however, I feel people, no matter their sexual orientation, should have the right to decide whether they are the marrying type, rather than have that decision foisted upon them by a frigging law or loophole.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

Terminology. It gets us in so much trouble.

To be perfectly technical: polygamy = the practice or custom of having more than one wife/husband at the same time. (Polyandry, by the way, would be the practice or custom of having more than one husband at the same time. Woot.) To be perfectly technical: deviant = diverging from normal standards, especially in social or sexual behaviour. (Which would include, given the oft-quoted 10% of the population number, any kind of sexuality that isn't het monogamy.)

Now. That being said.

Consenting Adults should be our credo, the child-molesting bastards who hurt these kids should be drug out into the street and SHOT, and you have sound and cogent arguments that should be heard by everybody. I am in your camp, and think you are smart. :)

[kaydee23.livejournal.com]

I hang my head again to be from Texas. Texas has already passed laws a couple of years ago to make it extremely difficult to impossible for non-traditional families to adopt or even foster children. Fortuately the Leg only meets every two years.

Oh my. Exactly where in West Texas is this conclave? I'm originally from West Texas (Lubbock) but when you say West Texas you're talking from El Paso to Abilene in most people's minds. You can drive for two days and still be in Texas.

I would love for you to send me a list (when you have time) of all these wonderful books about Mormonism and the LDS. I'm very fascinated.

I love Zane Grey and Orson Scott Card and then I start thinking ick thoughts. :shudder:

There's a man outside of Houston who has two or three wives, at least. They write about him in the paper on occasion Johnny Law has never gone after him. He's over there in Washington County with all the pretty rose bushes.

When you think about the state of the world, it's still so disgusting to be a woman anywhere, isn't it? And nearly impossible to be G/L/B/TR.

Personally, I don't think a law that favors the rights of polygamists will pass in Texas, unless it was shown to harm the rights of teh Evol Gay/Lesbian/Bi/TR deviants. :Please note the sarcasm: If the Leg and the Gawd Fearin' Folk find out *the deviants and the polygamists* have banned together, I think it will sink them.

More likely to take hold here are Klansmen and Militiamen. Oh wait. They've already taken hold.

David Koresh had him a set up in Wacko very similar to his, and he was raping, marrying, and enslaving children right and left, and when the government tried to rescue them, we got Oklahoma City, remember?

Was Wacko before or after Ruby Ridge?

[zyrya]

Yes, yes, yes.

::hugs you hard::

Every docco, article and news report I've seen on Mormon polygamy reveals a deeply abusive social structure which traumatises women and girls. Associating with them is akin to anti-pornography feminists allying with right-wing censorship fundies. You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

[anelith.livejournal.com]

Fill me in on what's happening legally -- is there a movement for a Texan constitutional amendment to restrict marriage to one man and one woman? Is that why the gays are joining up with the polygamists? I haven't seen any news about Texas in the paper, it's all been about the Kansas amendment which was just passed.

I do agree that gays are only hurting themselves if they align with the Mormon polygamists. Sounds as if they are ignorant of the facts. I'm all for Heinlein-esque type polygamy (well, not personally unless it's with crazydiamondsue and uberaeryn since they did ask me to marry them) but I think that's of hen's teeth-type rarity.

[anelith.livejournal.com]

I love Zane Grey and Orson Scott Card

I just can't read Scott Card anymore. I used to love his Alvin Maker books, and then found out they were basically a retelling of Joseph Smith's life and it lost its magic for me. I quit at _Crystal City_ and haven't read it, have you? I knew Scott slightly several years ago, and he's a very nice person, wonderful guy, and has had severe personal trauma in his family life that makes it easier to understand why he'd turn so hard back to religion, but... ack. What a shame. He used to preach that great hilarious "Secular Humanism" schtick at SF cons, then the LDS church got after him for doing it and he stopped.

[elucidate-this.livejournal.com]

Let me re-iterate: modern devout Mormons do NOT practice polygamy. They loathe it. Mainly because of it's stain on the church, and also for the drain on the welfare system. But I get angry they they don't do more to root it out. It's the ugly red-stepchild of the church that they just don't talk about, and therein lies a big part of the problem.

they loathe it, i get that, i've gotten that from every mormon i've ever met. but...most of the ones i've met also deny that it still happens, anywhere. i think it's easy to do that esp. in the northeast, and damn dangerous to do.

when we close our eyes to things like this because we don't want to own that people who belong to the same groups we do do it, we do so much harm.

i will definitely be reading those books as soon as the school year is over and i have the time to investigate things that aren't on my syllabi.

[kaydee23.livejournal.com]

I'd love to go to EnderCon, but not if he's going to get religious on me.

I didn't even know he was a Mormon until I read the Lost Children, or something like that.

I have to say I loved Enchantment.

I grew up in the c of C, and their brand of Christian Fundamentalism drove me from religion.

(church of Christ)

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Something else to keep in mind about Mormons: those who are born into it (and most especially those born into Utah Mormons families) are VASTLY different from those who convert to it. And the reason is due to the whitewashing the church has done to its own history. Those who have a history (like myself) know the stories of "blood atonement," of families being sent south of the border to keep "the principle alive at any cost" and so on. Those who convert are taught the prettified version of love and peace and Kingdom of God.

Those folks are just good people trying to live as God wants them to and be Christians. And they have no idea (usually) of the ugliness behind the door. The Utahns are good are keeping it quiet.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Man, you are close to one of those "re-education camps" south of Juarez, too. Bet there are a bunch of plygs in El Paso for the Big Shopping Day. Look for ladies with jeans under their calico dresses and hair in a braid down their backs.

The LeBaron Clan (the most violent of the off-shoots - the majority of that family is behind bars for ritual killings) is close to Juarez. That friend I mentioned that ran off and her sister wrote a book? They were LeBarons. Dude, Angelus would be freaked out by that guy.

[dusty273.livejournal.com]

That's awful! Poor girls being forced to marry and having to endure all that in name of religion. I definitely agree that this is in no way related to gay marriage. If two persons, whichever their gender, love each other and want to marry, they should be allowed to. If they wish to adopt a baby and give him/her the love their birth parents couldn't/wouldn't give them, they should be allowed to.

*hugs you*

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

It's interesting to note that when Joesph Smith revealed the commandment from god about polygamy, his wife Emma said God told HER that she could have more husbands. So God (how convenient) commanded Emma to cleave to one man, and leave his prophet alone. Because they had a new maid and she was purdy. D&C 132: 54, of their own scripture.

To be clear: I do not think of homosexuality (bi, etc.) to be deviant. Consenting adults is the key to this conversation. But I do have tremendous hatred for the men who perpetrate this continuing lifestyle. Fuck. Can you even begin to imagine being forced into marriage of some old, wrinkly wife-beater? And if you got upset about your lot, he took a tire iron to you?

Can you tell this is a sore spot? Solly.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

The ranch is over a thousand acres, and just south of Midland/Odessa. Heart of oil country.

And note this: the state rep is SPECIFICALLY going AFTER the polygs, and trying his damndest to keep the wording specific, so you can feel some Texas pride about that.

Another book to look into (and was written by my dad's buddy from Lehi, home of the famed rollermills where Footloose was filmed) is Mormon Polygamy, considered the definitive book on the topic. It's huge and detailed, so be warned. But FASCINATING. We're talking up to 70 years ago. WOW.

David Koresh was just your run of the mill religious wack-job, as far as I know (and have read) he was not aligned with Mormon Fundamentalists.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

So, so abusive. When I was in college, we'd try to sneak into their little commune and approach the girls and offer help. Some of the local men-folk found out about us, and would escort us from town. Police escort.

They have their own hospital that is highly specialized: births and plastic surgery. Most children there now are born with extra toes and fingers, so heavy is the inbreeding.

"You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas."

Amen, sister.

[winterlive.livejournal.com]

Can I imagine it? Sure. Sick fucks do not confine themselves to any particular religion - I've heard of many cases of domestic abuse, slavery, etc. It's just like insano-Islam types. (That's not the lovely ones who worship Allah and pray to the east, mind, but rather the ones who flog Allah like a horse for their own greedy/crazy ends.) I'm surprised those people from your neck of the woods don't practice female genital mutilation too.

In both cases, though, one thing is the same. Men deserve the wrath, yes, but it's the women who condone the practice that drive me truly up the wall. Whether it's tacit approval, simply by not objecting, or active approval, by teaching children that this acceptable, that it's the right way to do things - both the daughters and the sons - that they deserve pain. I mean, for the men? Out into the street and shot. Done. The women, well, see, for them there's special rituals you want to do before you kill them that ensure that when they die, they go STRAIGHT TO HELL. Otherwise they might enjoy a few blissful months in limbo until the appropriate deity upstairs finds out what they did.

[beadattitude.livejournal.com]

[somecandytalkin.livejournal.com]

Booyah, Miss Stoney.

And EEEEK! with teh special hospital!


PS: Just read something about the prevalence of sexual abuse in the Amish. Quaint. Fundamentalism oppresses.
And makes baby Jesus cry.