Mormons, Inc. The most successful business venture ever?

[stoney321]

Well, I hope you know I had a LOT to say about the PBS 2-parter, "The Mormons." Those of you that have read my other posts on Mormonism (and as a side topic, polygamy) and watched last night's show hopefully caught a lot of the topics I've gone on and on about. Go under the cut, grab a drink, hit the head, and settle in, it's not short. *g* (And if you missed it, it's going online at noon today.)



Firstly, things that disappointed me or that I felt didn't get the treatment necessary to having a layman understand:

• This should have been three parts, with the first focusing entirely on Joseph Smith. It needed to be mentioned how often he cheated on his wife, covered it up, blackmailed men for their wives to become his¹ for eternity, and his first prosecution by the law, in which he was jailed for a brief time and fined heavily. That was before the Golden Bible was written, incidentally, and most devout Mormons (esp. converts) do not know this for fact, and are actually TRAINED to disbelieve anything "unsavory" about Joseph, because it's Satan turning the hearts of the people against Truth. <-- actual comment by my church leaders growing up when questioned.


• The lack of mention at how few of the original "apostles" that gave credence to Joseph Smith's "vision" remained in the church shortly after its creation and subsequent harassment. (And how many of those men had to give their wives and property to Joseph to be allowed "back in.")


• The lack of mention at how almost every "plural" wife Joseph Smith took was 26 or younger, and considered by all to be "comely." Uh huh. Yep, the Lord wants you to raise up a puuuuurdy nation unto him. Riiiight. Ugly/Old Women=/=Pleasing Unto Me, thus sayeth the Lord.


• Small, but irritating as I lived there for years: They continually showed Bryce Canyon and Snow Canyon (southern Utah) as the place that the pioneers settled, which is false. They settled in what is now Salt Lake City and Ogden, almost 300 miles north. (Just one of those geological things that bugged me. Never mind. *G*)


• Regarding the Mountain Meadow Massacre, they failed to mention that the Arkansas wagon train was rumored to have several hundred dollars in gold coin, plus a large herd of longhorns, which were highly valuable on their own. Brigham Young was building an army, so gold and supplies would be essential.


• They failed to mention the Blood Vow that was made among the participants of the slaughter (read: murderers) at Mt. Meadows that required them to kill (and spill the blood) of those that spoke about the incident afterward. And how this was carried out in the church houses. I'll give you a moment to let that sink in. A man would be killed, his entire body's supply of blood drained out, if he spoke about what he (or others) did. (This happened in the Touquerville Stake House, of which my ancestors were members.)


• They skipped the succeeding President after Brigham Young, John Taylor, and he is PIVOTAL to the polygamist movement! He was the one that said he would die before he would allow the "Principle" (as it was called) to be taken from the earth. He is who took members aside and had them practice in secret, after being ordained in the "Full Keys of the Kingdom of God" so they could continue to do so. Incidentally, my cousin is married to his grandson. His family? Practices polygamy. (Skeeerry.)

I was very happy that they mentioned Joseph Smith's early shenanigans as a treasure seeker for money before he "found" the plates. Please know that I was a devout Mormon, from a line going back to the origins of the Church, and I was never, NEVER taught any of this. We were taught, by our leaders, by our "doctrine teachers," that the world would want to push us off the straight and narrow with lies and slander about Brother Joseph. And he was just a Man. (Although he's practically worshiped. Go to downtown SLC and you'll see what I mean.) They teach you to turn away from truth, to "pray and have personal reflection so that the Lord may show you the way."

I'm all for prayer, if that floats your boat, but I can hold a book on quantum physics and ask the Lord to impart his wisdom in me, but eventually, I'm going to have to crack those books.

---

The Book of Mormon got a soft treatment, imo. I've talked about it at length. Historians and scientists go APESHIT when the Mormons try and profess its contents as fact, because there is nothing but evidence in opposition of that. That's... that's a really tricky god, there, making each side out to be wrong. I was taught in my seminary classes that one of the reasons the American continent's Indians didn't attack Christopher Columbus (I'll give you a minute to remember where Columbus landed) is because Jesus came to the Americas after he was hung on the cross. He was white and glowy (because dead Jews become night lights?) and that story was passed down through the Indians and they thought maybe Chris Columbus was the Second Coming. I shit you not. There's so much fallacy in there, it'll make your head swim.

They discussed how there was a "mass hallucination" or possibly Actual Miracles™ happening when the Kirtland temple was dedicated. (Note: that church is no longer LDS property.) As I grew up in the church, we were constantly regaled with fantastical stories of angels "bearing witness' to everyday schlubs like me. When the Logan (Utah) temple was dedicated, people declared that they saw Indian Warriors (Nephites) long since dead and angelic in presence surrounding the temple, to allow them passage in, so that they may partake of the blessings within. There was the deeply Mormon story of the plague of crickets that threatened their food stores, and a mystical cloud of seagulls appeared out of nowhere (heaven sent) and devoured them. As I prepared as a youth to enter the temple and perform "baptisms for the dead"², my leaders - with beatific expressions on their heavenly turned countenances (this is how they talk) - told me of their experiences. Shared stories written by the Church for the youth. One such story was of a girl doing baptisms, and being filled so much With The Spirit that she could see a balcony along the ceiling with people - angels? - standing in line with happy, no, joyous expressions on their faces, waiting for their names to be called. And they would hear their name as the girl performed the baptisms and be Quickened with The Spirit and enter heaven.

The long and the short of it, if you were REALLY righteous, if you were REALLY connected to the spirit, you would See. Anyone ever hear of the Salem witch trials? Like you want to be caught not seeing heaven's bounty, right? It's hammered in from infancy that those who are most spiritual (read: worthy) will "see into the heavens as if the veil between the places have been lifted." <-- actual quote from my patriarchal blessing at the age of 20. Oh, boy. You can bet I wanted to see angels!

---

One other thing I wish they talked about: how EVERYONE originally associated with Joseph Smith and the creation of this religion no longer was a member. The Church will tell you it's because of greed, of wanting to have the religion tailored to their wants/needs (instead of Joseph's?), of Satan's influence on the weakness of man. But a reasonable person will look at the facts: Person A claims something as truth. Persons B through M say yes, it is so. A few years down the road, B through M have all left the church, been kicked out (their property given to Joseph) or have nothing but disdain for that period of their lives. THIS IS TELLING. And it's telling you that it was a sham. There must have been those that believed deeply, because who doesn't want to think that you can directly talk to God because He loves you? That's a lovely idea. It's all the "horses and steel and Jewish decendants in America" and "god wants me to sleep with many women and marry them in secret, even though they're married already" that is wackadoo.

The actual "revelation" that Joseph Smith received (written in 1843, although he was known to practice it in 1831 when they'd left Palmyra and were relocating in Kirtland, Ohio) in regards to plural wives is thus: D&C 132. (There's a whole lot of hoohaw, then skip to 30, where he hits the Abraham bidness. Because the prophets of old did it... So can I! The REALLY special part is where he hits on the adultery bits, because he was being accused left and right of it. Well, how convenient that God had something to say about that! (verse 41 on the same link.) Then, to REALLY save his neck, God wanted to speak out DIRECTLY to Joseph's legal wife, Emma Smith, about her getting all "het" up with her husband's philandering. (With her friends. And the baby sitters. IN HER HOUSE.) That would be 51-52. Because she was all, "If it's good for the goose..." and Jesus was all "Oh, snap! No, no, for women are to be cleaning my man's house, yo, and taking care of the kids. You don't get to go philandering, because then Joe Smizzle won't know your baby is HIS baby, and how can he be all 'BOOYAH' to Jebediah with his larger righteous number?" Except Jesus was far more literate and deep breathy/sighing about it.

Brigham Young (the second President of the Church, and the leader that brought the Mormons from Illinois to Utah) said himself of women in reference to Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs, married to Mr. Jacobs for time, and Joseph Smith for eternity (and allegedly bore Joseph a son that died in infancy. While married to Mr. Jacobs.), then later removed from Jacobs' house and "given" to Brigham as a wife for "time." (worn out yet?)

"The woman you claim for a wife does not belong to you. She is the spiritual wife of brother Joseph, sealed to him. I am his proxy, and she, in this behalf, with her children, are my property. You can go where you please, and get another, but be sure to get one of your own kindred spirits." (emphasis mine)

Please do not be disillusioned that polygamy is ANYTHING like polyandry. People choosing to cohabitate with others whom they love, and make adult decisions about their lives is NOT the aim/principle of polygamy. I've discussed this at length here. Some would argue that polygamy is a small portion of the Mormon's history, but in a way, it's the very essence of what they are: outlandish claims, lies to cover up, tweaking and "revelation from God" to make it seem palatable, then changing their stance to sway public opinion in their favor. Just because Modern Mormons (the majority converts not connected to the history of the church) aren't familiar with the truth of their prophets participating in pedophilia and rape "In the name of God" doesn't make it go away. And that's what I think they want - they want the ugliness to go away so they can continue on the path to "becoming" a regular ol' religion.

And please know that Mormons are COMPLETELY AWARE that they still believe in polygamy. That's one of the things that kills me! It's not in THIS life, but they fully expect polygamy in the next. I'll explain: my father was married and sealed to my mother in the temple for time and all eternity. They divorced civilly (heh, no they didn't, but I mean in the legal sense. Hee!) My father later marries my step-mother in the Mormon temple for time and all eternity. So... when he dies, he has two wives in heaven. If my mother had wanted to marry a man in the temple for time and all eternity, she couldn't. She could marry him for her life on earth, but in heaven, she's my dad's wife. How do you get around this? You get what is called a "temple divorce." This isn't granted often. You have to get permission from one of the 12 apostles that run the church, for starters. They break the "seal" between my mother and my father so she can marry another man and be HIS wife in heaven.

This is still in practice. Ergo, temple going Mormons (read: devout) are fully aware of polygamy in the next life is normal for many Mormons.

¹: In the Mormon faith, a man and woman are "sealed" in the temple for time and all eternity. It is possible to be sealed for only time (life) or only for eternity (post-death)
²: In the Mormon faith, you must be baptised by someone with "authority" in order to enter heaven. If you died before those priesthood powers were restored on earth, or before you could meet and become a Mormon yourself, I, for example, could have been baptised in your stead. Your name would be entered into Heaven's Record, and you could choose in the next life to accept or not. This is that big "tub" on the backs of twelve oxen in every temple - a baptismal font.

---

One reason why I think the church is so successful - although they lie about their numbers, 12 million means how many are on the rolls. A huge portion of that is inactive, or they refuse to give up the names, like in my case (and my children's case, grr.) - is that in a way, they are selling the American Dream overseas. They go to the poorest countries and have huge numbers of baptisms. The church has its own welfare system, for one. (And I admire that, actually.) The Church teaches that you can be blessed NOW for your clean living, unlike the catholic idea of blessings in heaven. (There's that too, it's the here and now blessings that are unique.) They profess that God loves YOU. God will talk to you, God is talking to his leaders NOW, he is living and real. (Like, Jesus is flesh and if you cut him, he would bleed. But be able to heal himself like Claire on Heroes. :D) They preach success is directly linked to godliness. If you are righteous, you will have money, essentially. Yeah, that's going to turn a few heads. =P

It's very strange to realize that I've been to these places: Navoo, the Carthage Jail where Joseph was assassinated, Independence, MO... They're held in such respect, you'd think you were walking the path of Christ to the cross. And while I was in Navoo, they didn't mention the Navoo Expositor (the printing press Smith had destroyed for printing "slander") except to say that a disgruntled former member (who wanted to give the Church his revelations because why couldn't he?) printed lies about Joseph. And that was that. O_O I love that this PBS show mentioned how that was the very OPPOSITE of what it is to be American. Freedom of press/print is such an ingrained concept to us, and it's amazing that Smith & Co. were shocked at America's revile when they heard of it.

---

I'm very much looking forward to the next part, as they look to discuss something that should be an affront to anyone who considers themselves an intellectual, or a believer in freedom of thought: BYU, the bastion of Mormon Thought, routinely fires professors that don't toe the line and further Mormon Doctrine. Prof. Nielson wrote an article about how maybe gays should be allowed to be married. I'm honestly blown away that he wasn't excommunicated. (I think he wasn't because the public eye was on the Church, and Mitt Romney was getting his campaign in order.)

D Michael Quinn was a professor that was granted UNLIMITED ACCESS to all of the Church's Records (this is and was unprecedented) to write a book about polygamy. He was given this access BY the Church! They hoped his would be less inflammatory than "Mormon Polygamy" by Richard Van Wagoner (who wrote what is THE definitive tome on the topic. Side note, he grew up down the street from my dad and is a good friend of his to this day. The book is very matter of fact with a slight hint of apologetics. And Van Wagoner is still LDS and devout, so he wasn't ex'd.) Quinn showed his work to the church. It was not favorable. (How could it be?) and Hinckley (an apostle at the time) said to go forth with it, if he felt he should. The implication was DO NOT PRINT THIS. He printed it. He was kicked out and raked over the coals.

Note that one of the "apostles" that got in Quinn's face was Dallin H. Oaks, who is on the PBS program saying how sad it was that people can't get over the Mountain Meadow Massacre. And babies of the age of 8 being SHOT IN THE FACE. Or HACKED TO PIECES. That's so sad they can't just "let it go." He's a supreme asshole.

I hope they mention Boyd K. Packer, who said to the entirety of the Mormon church that one of the greatest dangers facing their members were "intellectuals." I'll let THAT seep in, and the implications of an educated churchship on their rolls and the fear that must create. (What I was actually taught, by the church in church, about the Mountain Meadow Massacre: the US government had threatened to kill Mormons, not unlike the Missourians. There had been rapes and murders leading up to the event, so the Mormons were prepared to defend themselves. They acted alone without church governing, and worked with Indians to attack, and unfortunately murder a FEW of the Arkansas party. It's a tragic tale where people didn't obey the church. That was their official stance in the 1980s. And it is complete and utter bullshit.)

I think that what I find most irritating about the Mormons themselves (and on their own, they are every bit as nice or rude as any other person. It's getting them in a group that makes them weirdos) is their ignorant superiority. "Our Church is the One True Church. We alone know everything truthful, we alone know what God wants, we alone have the restored keys of the Kingdom of heaven, and unless you toe our line, you will be barred from heaven's blessings." And yet, hardly any of them know their originator was jailed on fraud. That he had a hit man that attempted to assassinate a US Governor. That Brigham Young ordered a group of people killed as a show of power and to gain property. That the 3rd leader pulled many men aside and instructed them to continue with the "most blessed of dispensations, Plural Marriage" as much as the church wants to deny and forget that. (I'd ask anyone who doubts this to look up the Smoot Case.) Mormons follow perfect obedience, and pledge allegiance to the church and its leaders twice a year. If you don't toe the line, you are barred from its "blessings." Anyone who says otherwise either doesn't know, or is lying because it makes them uncomfortable.

---

If I can impart any wisdom it's this: The Mormon Church changes its history routinely to stay midstream. They deny their history, even though there is a record. They hide their followers from the truth, and claim that to listen to the truth is giving in to Satan's lies and whisperings, and that will chip away at their faith, and then they'll be alone and godless. And so their people cling to their BS. I abhor this religion because it is based on lies, and built a surprisingly strong foundation on even more lies and bloodshed, and deny their people access to facts so they can exercise their faith. All religion is suspect, imo. But a religion that coerces and lies and flat out rules their people with an iron thumb is no church to follow, let alone believe in.

ETA: A negative response to the doc on the PBS blog that perfectly illustrates the fingers in the ear, deep, regretful sigh that is the average Mormon in the face of fact.

With all that has been said thus far, I must add that I feel quite misrepresented as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I felt a darkness and sadness prompted by the cynicism displayed throughout the show. The truth about the church can only be discovered through an individual study of it. No one can gain a true understanding of what we are and what we believe by listening to others opinions; opinions represented as truth in a mask of intellectualism.

Joseph Smith would reply to this documentary by saying that regardless of the outcomes created by it, the kingdom of God will roll forward with increasing momentum. Indeed he said, "the standard of truth has been erected; No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent,visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear,till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done."

I appreciate your efforts to inform the world of who we are, no matter what your motives are in doing so. I just want to say to anyone watching and reading that in the end truth is truth, and stands independent of commentary and cynicism. The only way to know truth is to seek it out yourself, independent of the opinions of others.

Part Two of this discussion is continued here.

Comments

[aimeelicious]

I was really hoping (and expecting, to be honest haha) that you would have a thoughtful and thorough response to the first half of this documentary, and I was not disappointed! I find Mormonism fascinating, and feel really fortunate to have you as an educated resource on the subject.

*squish*

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Hee hee!! I was wondering if any of my flisters were nodding along at some of the things in the doc as I've talked about a bunch of those subjects ad nauseum.

I'm REALLY looking forward to tonight's show - the Modern church is so different from the beginnings - the majority of the members are converts, for example, so they're not steeped in this history.

*smooch*

[thebratqueen.livejournal.com]

Ooo - interesting! I wonder if the show's repeating anytime soon.

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Frontline and American Experience always stream episodes online after they've been aired.

I think the first part is already up on the Web site here (http://www.pbs.org/mormons/?campaign=pbshomefeatures_2_frontlineamericanexperiencethemormons_2007-05-01) (or you'll be able to see it soon). The second part (which airs tonight) will be up sometime on Wednesday.

[redbrickrose.livejournal.com]

I didn't see the documentary yet, but I do find your perspective on Mormonism really interesting. Thanks for such an in-depth commentary.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

*squish* (Lee and I talked about your cute self a whole bunch during her visit, btw. *g*)

I'd love for someone who is still devout in the faith to get into a discussion with me, but alas...

[violethamster.livejournal.com]

Note to self: religion freaky. Weird how God seems to have no problems at all with ugly old men, huh?

I can't help but find Mormonism (and religious history in general) wacky and fascinating and infuriating, I've read a few books about it and I love your posts about it.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Yeah - god is a-ok with ugly OLD men (large emphasis on the old) but somehow he only likes handsome, fertile women under the age of 26 or so. o_0

I love religious history, and Mormon history is so fascinating because it's all new! It all happened in the age of information and print. (Which is weird that so many people believe it. But then, they do a wWONDERFUL job of isolation from mainstream thought...)

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

Here's the link (http://www.pbs.org/mormons/?campaign=pbshomefeatures_2_frontlineamericanexperiencethemormons_2007-05-01) to watch the program starting at noon.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[a2zmom.livejournal.com]

Oh, both fascinating and deeply weird.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Robin, it so is. On both counts. (The doc is very interesting, and very well done, I felt. Balanced and not attacking, but forthright. It needed to be longer to really get it all out there, imo.)

[knotted-rose.livejournal.com]

I, too, had been waiting for your informed, educational and entertaining comments about the documentary. Thank you for taking the time. Mormons *scare* me. I taught English in Taiwan and it shocked me how many of the young people had converted.

One of the things that I found disturbing was that the kids were all "caffeine bad -- can't drink soda" etc. But they guzzled tea -- because the church had told them it didn't have any caffeine. And they didn't believe me when I told them the church lied. (Then again, they were so lied to by their own government -- one of them once showed me their history book which claimed that the island of Taiwan was uninhabited before Kuomintang came.)

One of the kids I knew once told me that he was just in it for the education. If he did well and followed their strictures, then they'd pay for him to go to the states to college. There was a young girl who I think believed more, but who had also wanted the opportunity to go to the states to college. However, though her grades were *much* better, she was told that she couldn't go -- because she was a woman. She left the church that day.

As I said -- scary. Thank you again for more information about them.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

(Ahahaha, the church TOTALLY says no to tea - those kids are going to hell! I kid, I kid, I don't believe in hell. *g*)

And you know, I COMPLETELY believe that they used the Church's system to get to college, yes! (I mean, they have a campus on the big island of Hawaii - scholarship there, please!) They also have an incredibly helpful welfare system that gets the person off of the dole and on their feet in an average of SIX WEEKS. That's unheard of in any circles.

I think the Taiwan/girls can't go to college was an affect of living where she did. Mormons love to send their daughters to college to prove that they're intellectual, but not elitist. (It's convoluted, I know.) Mostly the girls go to get their MRS.s. :D

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Sounds like Smith was very similar to Scientology's L. Ron Hubbard.

(And I have to say that when reading all of this, I still had the South Park "dumb, dumb, dumb/ smart, smart, smart" soundtrack from their Mormon episode in my head)

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

AHAHAHAHA! I was WAITING for them to talk about Martin Harris! They never did! I need to add that to my list of "things they should have discussed, but didn't" as that is ESSENTIAL.

I was glad that they talked about how 19th Century America was RIFE with evangelicals. He was just lucky, Smith. REEEEEALLY lucky.

[lynnenne]

You should write a book on all this. Seriously. You could probably get on Oprah and become a millionaire.

He was white and glowy (because dead Jews become night lights?)

Hahahahahahahahahaha!

*uses icon of sacrilege*

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Oh, there's loads of books out there already. But I'd love to be on Oprah and be a millionaire! *reconsiders*

I love how all of the accounts of "heavenly visitors" that Joseph received were All White. Hair, skin, clothes... JESUS WAS A JEW. A deliciously swarthy large schnozzed dark haired Jew.

[brandil.livejournal.com]

speechless

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Yeah. It's no wonder why I left, right? o_0

Edited because my HTML suxors

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your overview. I find Mormonism to be fascinating (not in the "I wanna be a Mormon kind of way...more in a historical and cultural context.)

I suspected the more deep-background stuff can be found on the PBS-associated Web site. I know in watching the first part last night, I definitely picked up that no one from Palmyra, N.Y. stayed with Mormonism in the long-term, and I definitely picked up that Smith blackmailed people under his leadership into giving him property, money, and access to wives/daughters. It's possible that the Web site might have more detailed information and have it spelled out, maybe?

There was honestly very little new information in last night's documentary that I didn't know — I think most of the stuff that was new to me was Joseph Smith's activities in Missouri and Illinois. And honestly? I hate to say this — mostly because something in me quails against condoning religious persecution — I can't blame the locals in Illinois for driving the Mormons out, especially since those same neighbors welcomed them with open arms and then found themselves bullied by the very people they were willing to accept.

What's interesting is that the shooting of Joseph Smith is probably what saved Mormonism. If that man lived to stand trial, I somehow doubt that Mormonism would have survived because Smith himself couldn't stand up to scrutiny (as the destruction of the printing press shows).

Things that did surprise me: That there was so much focus on the Mountain Meadow Massacre. That there was no mention of The Pearl of Great Price.

As for polygamy, while I wish they did highlight that particular problem more and what it actually meant for women back then and how it is still affecting Mormons in the western states today, I think there were very clear indications that this is not a happy-making thing on earth. Duuuude, those "nice polygamists" that were spotlighted? I don't know if it looked like it to you, but those women did not look happy at all to me.

In either case, I thought it was even-handed portrait and I pretty much knew wouldn't please anyone. Even so, (and no offense to practicing Mormons and ex-Mormons), I honestly don't think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints came off all that well as an institution.

Also, something else to consider: Last night's part was the part done by The American Experience. It has a solid track record for historical documentaries, but is traditionally a far more cautious animal when considering different angles and issues.

Frontline is the f*cking bull in a China shop, and their half is running tonight. I suspect that's where the real surprises are going to show up, both good and bad.

Oh, and by the way, some of the Mormon leadership are unhappy about Part 1. (http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660210436,00.html)

Meant to add...

[liz-marcs.livejournal.com]

The PBS site does have something on Smoot case (http://www.pbs.org/mormons/themes/smoot.html) with input from two historians.

I mention it because you mentioned it in your post. :-)

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

HI BETH I LOVE YOU! I am fine. We'll get those platters to you early Friday, 'kay?

And I'm going to eventually upload these episodes, but if you scroll up in comments, there's a link to pbs.prg where you can watch it online!

[domenowtrent.livejournal.com]

That person quoted the Standard of Truth. Gag. I had to memorize that for my Mission Prep class. ....which I failed, hahahaha.

About the plural marriages for eternity- that's what happened to my grandparents. They got divorced and grandpa remarried Brenda. Brenda thought the church was stupid and wouldn't get baptized. After she died, grandpa had her baptized by proxy and this year, he's going to get sealed by proxy. The thing about this: my grandma HATES Brenda, with a PASSION, and she is FURIOUS that she has to spend all eternity with the woman who took my grandpa away from her. This single concept is what gets my mom about the church. She's starting to not like the church anymore.

ALSO. Where do you hear all this stuff about Joseph Smith? I mean, until I read Under the Banner of Heaven, I hadn't even heard a quarter of all the things you've said.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

re: how do I know all of this about Brother Joseph? Heh - I've looked! It helped that my dad was a Sunstone scholar on their lecture circuit, and they try to intellectualize the wackiness of the church. Get a copy of Fawn Brodie's "No Man Knows My History" which is the ultimate scholarly biography on Joseph. (And it's not attacking, it's just factual.)

Van Wagoner's "Mormon Polygamy" gives a lot of information about him during the formation of the church, and how the whole "plural marriage" topic came up in the church itself. That's an AMAZING book - loan it to your mom when you're done. And be prepared for fireworks.

[soundingsea.livejournal.com]

I watched about half the doc (until I got too sleepy) last night after ESL. Fascinating stuff, and I like hearing your expansion on the real deal. I'll definitely be watching the rest.

Religion freaky, indeed. Reminds me of some of the *extremely* fringe Catholic stuff when I was a kid (like consecration to the Blessed Virgin).

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Man, religion is just CRAZY! And really, when it all boils down to it, it's belief in the supernatural. Is it weirder to believe that a young girl gave birth to a half-god? Or that Zeus had a headache and birthed his own child? Or that God commanded a general - Native American - to write an account of his people on gold plates (that he could just carry around like a paperback) and some farmer's kid found them 2 millennium later? (Okay, probably the latter. ha!)

It's all the smoke and mirrors with church that makes me cry out SHENANIGANS.

[fiveandfour.livejournal.com]

We're recording these to watch later; my husband's grandmother converted to Mormonism after his mom/her daughter died and it's one of those things that's a mystery to him still. He understands that she was suffering a huge spiritual crises after the death of a very (VERY) beloved child and that she looked to religion for comfort. But he can't understand how a reasonably intelligent adult would choose *that* religion unless they go into it willing to ignore the its many unpalatable facets. Given her experiences that we've been privy to, there are things we admire - such as the depth of support she got from the church and people in her ward when her husband was dying of cancer, for example. It really was remarkable. But she's not a person who goes into any other situation not asking hard questions, so it's a mystery to us how she's been able to maintain such a blind spot with Mormonism. (And it's interesting, when my husband talked to her about how he was watching Big Love and described what it was about, she was veeerrry bristly on the subject, telling him the church completely rejects polygamy now. Except when it comes to eternity, apparently, which is when it counts the most, it would seem to me.)

For a time she subscribed my daughter to the children's magazine (I can't remember the name of it now) and I found it a quite fascinating use of propaganda techniques. I think your comment regarding the church selling the American dream around the world is spot on given what I observed month after month in what they put out there for children to ingest.

Last but not least, thanks for going into such detail on your thoughts - it really is fascinating. I don't mean this to sound as insulting as it sounds, but I get the same sense that people are or have been "controlled" in the church in the same way that they are in cults. It's a fine line between cult and what people consider a legitimate religion, though, and I've thought for a long time that psychologists could probably get a lot of insight into the techniques cults use to gain/keep members by interviewing Mormons and former Mormons (or is that "lapsed", like with Catholicism, so that even if you've moved on the church considers you a member forever?). Anyway, that "Hotel California" aspect of Mormonism means that getting information from someone who has heard what the church teaches then went on to question those lessons is more intriguing in a lot of ways than what outsiders say/think/have observed.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

you know, I can COMPLETELY understand why people join now, in these times, when they feel spiritually bereft. The church is crafted to be kind, to provide community (boy, howdy!) and most importantly, they Have Answers. They have the Answers to the big questions: why are we here? What is my purpose? Where am I going? Whether it's true or not, I say no. But I can understand how that is a light in the darkness.

My father is a member. He's a member because he believes in community and focusing on the family, and feels that the LDS church provides a better structure than other religions. He may be right. But I can't reconcile myself to the lies they perpetrate, personally.

Your daughter got The Friend!! Oh, man. It's so subtle, the propaganda, isn't it? I compltely agree with you that it's a cult. A very pleasant, church pot luck dinner cult, but a cult nonetheless. Look at people's reactions to any disagreement. You don't find that sort of rabid devotion and stopping of ears in, say, the Jewish culture. They debate, discuss, disagree, and think. It's very organic and beautiful.

I love the analogy of "Hotel California" in regards to the church, ahahaha! BECAUSE IT IS TRUE.

[gillo]

Fascinating. Mormons here in England are pretty rare, and generally regarded as being on the lunatic fringe. The polygamy and post-death baptism both seem freaky to most Brits, though teh general Niceness gets them occasional converts. I didn't know much of what you mentioned, other than that Smith was a pretty shifty character, and Young a bit dodgy too, so thanks for such a thoughtful, detailed post.

I've always felt baptising my ancestors counted as a kind of spiritual rape, BTW.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

You know, Mormons didn't USED to be rare in England. That was the first place Joseph dispatched missionaries (while he took their wives) and they had a HUGE following. (My ancestors the Featherstonehaughs were some of them) I think a large portion of them joined the emmigration movement to Utah. (Which makes them immigrant emmigrants. Hee!)

And we're agreed on the baptising of ancestors. Which is why the Orthodix Jews have leaned hard on the church to cut it out with their members. (Why do you think geneology is so big in the Mormon Church? They're getting names for the temple and for baptism.)

[elfgirl.livejournal.com]

This is a fabulous write-up, Laura. My ex-in-laws (really, just my ex-MIL) are Mormon. I had no idea before watching Latter Days* that Mormons has issues with homosexuality because she (MIL) has a brother who's gay and she has absolutely no problem with him or his partner of 20+ years. She dotes on them. (He's the baby brother.) She converted to Mormonism in adulthood, though, so that might be part of it.

The ex was raised in the church and made it all the way to mission prep, but never went. When we got married his best friend growing up called to say congratulations and to taunt me (teasingly) that we'd never be able to find each other in heaven because we weren't sealed.


*Speaking of--was the Mormon aspect why you didn't like the movie? I wondered about that, but didn't ask when you commented that you didn't like it.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Well, I'll say that the Mormon aspect was something I didn't like, because it disregarded some basic rules. (Missionaries are never EVER alone, accept to shower/toilet.) But there were other reasons - I thought the acting was subpar, and the story delved into film school tricks that didn't work for me. But apparently I'm the only one who didn't like it!

And GOOD. NESS. SAKES. does the LDS church despise homosexuality! That - among intellectualism - are the two leading forces of evil corrupting the Church and its members, according to the Presidency. This is what they teach twice a year at the General Conference (which is when the leaders speak directly to the members and get them to re-affirm their faith and obedience.)

I am so impressed with the MIL with a gay brother - that is RARE. My cousin is closeted and married in haste to keep questions at bay. His father (my uncle) told his children that any "queers" would be disowned, and that's a typical response. I've seen people driven out of their life-long communities for the HINT of being gay.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Whoa. I knew a few things about Mormons, but not the full extent of their schemes and systems. Thank you for sharing.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Oh, man. Absolutely! If you feel like reading more, I've written several posts on this topic, all joined in tags.

Thanks for reading and commenting!

[mbangel10.livejournal.com]

I am always intrigued by your posts on Mormonism. It's very interesting, and after reading this I think I'm going to head to the PBS website and watch the first part of the special now. In some respects, Mormonism (and most religions if you think about it) can be compared to the FSM (http://www.venganza.org/) religion. I don't think anybody can prove any religion "wrong", but for some reason they just don't seem quite right either. :)

My brother lives in Tooele, Utah and he's made mention that if I ever came to visit he'd take me to Salt Lake City just so my mind would be blown by how devout the Mormon religion is. Is it true that the church requires 10% of your pay? I think he mentioned something like that once.

All religion interests me, but I've always been on the agnostic side of things. I like to look at all religions equally, and have the ability to step back and view things without a centered belief system. It makes things much more entertaining for me.

I look at the after life like a big, huge, wrapped up birthday present that I can't open until I die. I'm not going to know what's in there until it happens, and that's fine by me. It's all a surprise! no matter what religion any one person follows. :p

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Well, you can't "prove" faith, which is why I get so aggravated every time the "creationism in schools" debate comes up, because it's not rooted in any historical and biological fact.

And while Mormons aren't REQUIRED to pay a tithe (and it's 10%, gross, not net!) you won't be allowed in the temple if you don't pay. So. Not required, but since everyone will remember not seeing you at the temple, you don't want them to think you aren't living all the precepts. *G*

And I find religion endlessly fascinating. The rituals, the rules... All so we can better understand the unknown. Mind boggling. :D

[jerusha]

Thank you very much for posting this. I find it fascinating, because I work with Mormons, and one of them has been trying to convert me. There are a number of reasons to not convert, but I had been wondering how J. could be so sincere in his beliefs. Your explanation of Mormonism, and what is essentially the brainwashing they go through, explains a lot. I really appreciate that.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Well *cough* if you want to get rid of their attempts, you can just say that you believe Joseph SMith was a pedophile charlatan. :D

(And you know, Mormons aspire to be good people. I admire that. I just can NOT stomach what their system of beliefs is based on. At all.)

[pepperlandgirl4.livejournal.com]

Your post is very interesting to me because while I have made a complete spiritual break with the church (hard to stick around when you're a hard atheist), I have yet to make a cultural break. Which, given the fact I live in Salt Lake City about 1/2 mile from Temple Square is a bit hard to do. But I got bristely while I read about Joseph Smith, and then I realized what I was doing, and then I realized why. It's not easy to reconcile the "truth" with the facts, especially if, like me, you pretty much abandoned the whole thing without giving any of it deep thought. I left the church because I literally realized it was foolish for me to believe in God, not because of anything the church did or didn't do.

there might have been a point buried in the paragraph. I'm not sure.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

You know... it took until THIS YEAR for me to stop apologizing and explaining to people about the Mormons. I haven't been LDS for more than 10 years! What on earth? That's how deeply it's ingrained! We're taught that CYA (cover your ass) mentality constantly.

And I was a deep believer in god, in Jesus, in all of it. Then I realized the lies I'd been taught, delved deeper, and realized that I really didn't believe in any of it. I have no belief in a higher power of any sort, personally.

(Oooh, I used to live on Second and B street! Good times...)

[ex-dovil323.livejournal.com]

When I was a kid I live in this place that had two blokes come out once a week to preach to us and to be honest I don't know whether they were Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. There was something about planets, it was all very weird, and even as a 10 year old I thought you couldn't make this crazy up.

Everyone has a belief system, but some are just weirder than others when you scratch the surface. *Scratching the surface means you're in league WITH SATAN! DON'T SCRATCH THE SURFACE, OR YOU'LL BURN IN HELLLLL!* In other words, Jesus asks that you don't think, k thanks.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

*swallows what you give me without looking or thinking*

I bet they were Mormons - Jehovah's Witnesses tend to be women. Planets! Yes, if you achieve the highest level of righteous living, You Too Can Be A God! And have sex with your wives and make all the humans (billions!) for your new Little Planet™.

HI DOVIL!! I've been absent from online life, HELLO! Your icon is the BEST THING EVER. *rides with Hitler*

[xanphibian.livejournal.com]

My mom and I have been discussing your posts and religion for hours. This is a heavy thing, since in the past we've declared a cease fire on the subject because my mother always ends up crying and praying for my soul, and I usually end up screaming. So for us to find something about religion that we can both agree with is pretty cool.

Thank you for being so frank and informative, and for (of course) injecting your own brand of humor in with the WTFness. :)

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Heeeee, well no, religion isn't usually the topic that brings people together is it? UNLESS IT'S ABOUT CRAZY PEOPLE. :D

Thanks, Greenie, for reading and commenting. (If you and the moms are interested, I'm writing up a review of Part Two.)

<3

[samsom.livejournal.com]

I've always mistrusted any religion that encourages "don't ask, just believe" since I was very young. I thought it was just the church leaders' way of making sure their flock doesn't get smart to them and stop worshipping, thereby denying them of all the land and power and money that would come with those worshippers.

I have this urge to call my dad and thank him for not raising me with any religious beliefs. I'm not an atheist, and I have a strong affection for my husband's faith - he's Jewish - but whatever I believe about the afterlife won't be influenced by fear or terror. *Nods firmly*

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Boy, I have the same mindset: if they tell you to not ask, RED FLAG! (Although, ahem, it took me several years to get there. *g*)

"but whatever I believe about the afterlife won't be influenced by fear or terror." YES MA'AM. (And I've got more to say on that coming up in a bit. They're quite clever with how they do it.)

[justhuman.livejournal.com]

Great post. I was raised Catholic on the east coast, so the only thing I knew about Mormons were the ads in the front of the TV guide offering a free bible and as a bonus, a copy of the Book of Mormon. For the record, I'm a happy pagan girl now with a deep mistrust of organized religion.

I got curious after I started watching Big Love, and well, I'm just fascinated by religion anyway. I read Under the Banner of Heaven and was fascinated, not only by the details of the formation of the modern church, but the fundamentalist extremes that the doctrine seems to drive some to.

I forgot to set up the TiVo, yesterday, but I think I'm set to pick up a local rebroadcast on a different PBS station. With Mitt Romney running for president, I think it's going to become very important to understand the kind of background he's coming from. He's quoted Kennedy about being able to put aside his personel beliefs to do the job, but Salt Lake City is a whole lot closer the Rome and so are all the Mormon supporter contributing to his campaign. And this is before we factor in his work against gay marriage when he was governor of Mass.

Anyway, sorry to ramble - I think we were briefly introduced at Writercon and someone on the flist pointed to your post. I'm looking forward to reading the other posts you linked.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Hello! Oh, I certainly don't mind discussion (it's never rambling when there's a point!) For the record, I have a link up top (before the cut) to PBS's stream of Part One, and I'm about to post again to discuss/link to Part 2.

I've talked about why Mitt Romney shouldn't be elected (he HAS to obey his Church Leaders. Or he'll be in violation of one of their basic tenents!) and I agree that the populace really needs to understand why this religion isn't the same as being Lutheran or Jewish or Wiccan. TOTAL obedience, disguised by "personal prayer."

(And Big Love really got it right in a lot of ways. Rulon is Warren Jeffs.)