scientific poll of importance

[stoney321]

Since I seem to have ruffled a lot of feathers earlier today, I thought I'd go for broke. Whee, aren't you glad I'm posting again?

[Poll #1644983]

Um, so if you feel like defriending is important for you, I certainly will not judge you. I am a total B word.

Comments

[fishwithfeet.livejournal.com]

After working at a zoo in a children's play and splash zone I'm kind of torn on the leashing thing. One one hand, I've seen some parents who could probably make good use of it ( WHY IN GODS NAME WOULD YOU LET THEM RUN AHEAD OF YOU WHEN YOU KNOW THEY CAN RUN RIGHT INTO THE WATER?!?!) and some who use it who probably don't need it because they're good parents and some who don't need it.

I'd say a leash should be unnecessary if you're implementing the right discipline with your child (and yes I just watched 2 episodes of SuperNanny today)

But this is all me telling parents how to parent without being a parent yet myself. And that being said, this is your journal and you can do whatever the hell you want with it. I'm here for the humor and sarcasm.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

I think JoJO is solidly against the leash, for whatever that means to anyone. She finks its un-ah-sept-uble. hahaha.

I AM GLAD YOU SEE I AM BEING SARCASTIC. Kinda. Mostly. Somewhat. A little. Lol.

[gillo]

We used one, very occasionally, because she was going through an independant phase and wouldn't hold hands. It didn't last, and we gave up on it once she was happy to hold hands again. I didn't feel particularly bad or good about it; it was just one of teh things we tried out to see if it suited. We didn't use it much with the second kid.

The older girl is now studying for her master's degree in London, the younger is at a good drama school. Neither have yet become serial killers. Give them time.

IOW, a lot depends. On the kid, the place, the parent.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

"Neither of them have yet become serial killers." You've blown my very scientific research out of the water, and I don't know how to feel about it! Lol.

I shudder when I see them, I'm completely upfront about it, but I'm not the boss of you or anyone other than my own kids, so, eh.

[dovil.livejournal.com]

I was a leashed toddler if out at the shopping mall, but I like to think my serial killer tendancies stem from other factors. Though mum did quite like to strangle the other kiddies with the leash while I was still attached to it, but eh, pretty flimsy connection if you ask me.

I have no intention of having children so it's kind of irrelevant, but I do promise and cross my heart never to put my cats on leashes even though taking all 57 down to the mall is a real exercise in staying on your toes, mostly down to all the faeces they leave everywhere.

What my Strong Opinion is: there are some places that children shouldn't be taken. Like taking them down to the local cafe and spending hours there chatting with your friends over coffee and not having anything for the kids to do so they run rampant about the place bored out of their skulls - Not Cool People! For gods sake, how long does it take to pack a colouring-in/storybook or a toy to keep them occupied - or better yet realise that some spaces are adult ones and small kids just aren't really appropriate for everyone elses sanity and that kids have small windows before they become tired and cranky and grumpiness decends.

But this is because everyone else sucks and is wrong.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Remind me to pack dog biscuits for you on our trip.

"There are some places that children shouldn't be taken." AGREED. It's really upsetting to me when children come in to the club - I always mess up and slide down the pole, in a bad way.

[elizardbits.livejournal.com]

I AND MY MANICURED TOES HATE YOU FOREVER LAURA

JSYK

tbh my toenails are so short that you can see the tips of my toes poking out after them, so perhaps I am immune to your disgust. NEVERTHELESS AS YOU ARE WELL AWARE I DO NOT ACTUALLY CARE.

prancing time now


also tbh I think children should be kept in small but well-ventilated metal boxes until such time as they are able to communicate like normal human beings and not using shrieking relentlessly as their primary means of conversation. I am aware that this is perhaps an unpopular opinion.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

I'm flying up to NYC with some bolt cutters for your toenails. I LIKE MANICURED NAILS, BTW. I'm just not into the French pedicure - it makes me think the person needs a trim, augh.

IF IT'S NOT LONGER THAN YOUR TOE, YOU ARE SAFE FROM MY WRATH. Ahahahaha. OMG, prance for me, pls, I am about to cook foods for children and I cannot be trusted to prance near knives and flames.

[fabrisse.livejournal.com]

One of my friends used reins on her kids so that they could run ahead or stay behind a little and she wouldn't have to worry about kidnapping. It's not my favorite thing, but I can see the utility. I mean, as long as we're not talking about a collar around a neck or anything because that's dangerous.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

But... kidnapping? Really? Like, that was a genuine concern? I think on some deep level all mothers are instinctively over-protective in the lizard brain when it comes to our kids, but I don't really believe my children will actually be abducted, even if I keep my back up with watchfulness.

Any kidnapper would bring them back home after ten minutes of their bickering, for one. ;)

[evamagick.livejournal.com]

I made an informal poll about child leashing on my Facebook, and a good chunk of my educated, lovely friends have actually leashed their children at one point or another, usually in the name of safety (like, kidnapping safety). Um. Okay. Still against it, though.

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

They were worried about *kidnapping*?!? I leashed my kids in the mall, because it's a friggin MALL. Kidnapping was the least of my concerns -- there are entire stores in there with nothing but sparkly, fragile objects and NO FRONT DOOR!

Also crowds, open stairwells, etc etc.

[fannishliss.livejournal.com]

I wasn't planning to comment about the leashing, but since you asked! I never used a harness or leash on my child, and he only ran out in front of a car, causing it to slam on its brakes, once! yay! I also only restricted my entire shopping experience to three stores total for six or seven years! I did eventually train him not to yank his little hand out of mine and take off running by when he was 8, thanks for asking! :)

Of course you may feel free to delete or defriend as you wish!

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

I did ask! I always welcome commentary. I think we all as parents have had those close calls. You can't protect them from EVERYTHING, you might as well start teaching them how to behave, react, etc.

And see, you've made the best point in that YOU TRAINED YOUR CHILD. Brava, madam, brava. This comment stands as a testament!

Watch out! Here comes a Mad Villian!

[gabzilla.livejournal.com]

DERP.

This is out of control, woman! Like my child who steps out the front door, and while I lock it, runs down the steps and into the street and does not listen to me saying stay with mommy or yelling STOP! NO! And since he is more slippery than a pig suntanning with Crisco, managing to hold his hand is beyond me, the horrible parent and poor excuse for a human being who can understand when a parent needs a little help to keep their kid from hurting themselves. (what does it matter how many kids vs. parents there are unless you are tying them up to a sleigh and making them haul you ass around the neighborhood as you whip them saying MUSH! MUSH!)

Eh, I don't know.. Unless the parents are doing something they REALLY should not be doing, they won't develop a kink or become a murderer or even a politician. It takes more than one little thing.

[gabzilla.livejournal.com]

Oh, and in case it is coming across the wrong way, I am totally sarcastically "mad" about this subject. I really don't care if your opinion differs from my own. I just care when people look at me like I'm abusing my child or trying to rip his arm off when I try to keep him from doing something dangerous.

i believe

[fayeven.livejournal.com]

you are made of awesome, and i am totally on board with all of your complaints in the last entry.... even if i wasn't it's your own damned journal and people need to chill.... that is all <3

to be fair

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

if there's one thing that will get a person's back up, it's the thought of having your parenting questioned, so I ain't bovvered. ;)

[slasheuse.livejournal.com]

Reins sound different from leashes. My mother always INSISTED on hand-holding or in-the-pushchair. Apparently she once said 'Well, if you won't hold my hand, that's fine, but you'll be wearing reins from now on' and I was SO INCREDIBLY OFFENDED that I held her hand.

Oh, I really enjoyed your phone rant earlier and I thought you'd like this. For ANNOYING PHONE WOMEN. Tho I bet you already know LoG backwards.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Reins/leashes, I think they're the same. Here there would typically be a harness on the child's torso and a leash affixed to that. The parent would either loop the end around their wrist or tie it to a stroller. IT SOUNDS SO RIDICULOUS JUST TYPING THAT OUT. Gah.

OMG, I love The League of Gentlemen! Give me a good sketch comedy group any day. <3

[soundingsea.livejournal.com]

I have no children. This is not an accident - it's a deliberate plan for my life, thankyouverymuch. That said, I totes have an opinion on your parenting topic du jour!

When I see one of those stupid leashes, I think that it's demeaning for both parties involved. A child is a person, not a puppy!

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

I love it when people weigh their options and opt out of the parenting gig. I love that women can do that now, you know?

I FEEL THE SAME AS YOU.

[minim_calibre]

I think there needs to be a Child Rearing Issues Cagematch to see what can cause the most passionate responses. Mostly, I just think it's hilarious that child leashes are up there with bottle vs breast in that battle. (Every few years, someone I know comes out as passionately opposed to them. Which I just don't feel. I mean, I admire the passion, but I think they have their uses, even if they are overkill for most parent/child combos.)

However, and now that I'm not on my phone, I can say that I did once suggest flippantly to my brother that he use the Monks of New Skete methods to raise his child, only to have me take me semi-seriously. So, you know, all parenting suggestions I make should probably be taken with LARGE GRAINS OF SALT.

AND TOTALLY INSUFFICIENT SAMPLE SET, but my unleashed brother is WAY more likely to become a serial killer than I am!

[a2zmom.livejournal.com]

Ah, but if you were a serial killer would you admit to it?

[kuzu-no-ha.livejournal.com]

In Disney world with my 2 yr old. She is NOT leashed. I am seeing a lot of them though and not just toddlers either. Waiting to see a 13 yr old leashed. It's coming people! Ok back to my vacay with the Mouse. Kisses

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Kisses back, and GOOD FOR YOU.

[tundrabeast.livejournal.com]

Weighing in on the leashing thing: my mum put me on a leash so that I wouldn't run off and die because I was really curious and about as unstreetwise as it is possible to be, even as a child.

I don't have a problem with it because a. my leash was turquoise and totally cute
b. she didn't yank me around or hurt me or whatever
c. I haven't been forever ruined or scarred or humiliated, I really didn't care at the time at all, I was more excited about e.g. tellytubby custard.

Also, most importantly, I don't believe that children are fully human. Which sounds okay that's a shit way to put it. Children are fully human, but they're not fully people. They're like, pre-people and they still have a lot of animalistic traits (e.g.: selfishness for the purpose of self-preservation) so for me, treating a child like an animal in certain ways is not disrespectful. They are people in the making. They're not there yet. They deserve respect and love and fear and recognition of their intelligence and skill and all these other things, but so do animals, but you wouldn't give either an animal or a child a ferrari or a stove because they'd have no bloody idea what to do with it. In the same way, in order to preserve the tender and fragile meat-shell of a child or animal's beautiful precious soul which is their body, if you use your better judgement and decide they're too damn stupid to sort themselves out so you'd like to have a method of control which you feel is less fallible than just trying to keep a grip on your mucky wriggling sly little larva, there's nothing wrong with that.

Also I forgot I have always always always hated holding hands and if my mother tried to hold hands with me I threw a small child bitchfit at her. I really really hated it. I liked having both hands free to grab and paw at and manipulate what I wanted e.g. organising toothpaste tubes. The leash allowed me to that.

Just my opinion as a leashchild. Also keep in mind I myself will never have children so don't fret about me passing on my admittedly weird attitude to another generation. x

[ryokomusouka.livejournal.com]

+1 for the "Not fully human". I have three. I'm wondering if my 16-year old will make to "human" status as we speak.

I forget where I read it, but one parenting "expert" advised new parents to treat their very young children something like puppies. Firm guidance, small words, swats with a newspaper when needed. Yes, I leashed occasionally. And yes, I always cleaned up their poo while on walks with them.

/facetiousness

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

I saw your post this morning, disagreed in my head and went on about my day! Clearly I am doing it wrong?

[flaming-muse.livejournal.com]

OMG, KITA, YOU FAIL AT THE INTERNET!

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

What I show people who think leashing is a sign of our careless modern times:

(http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Art/collection_database/european_paintings/rubens_his_wife_helena_fourment_1614_1673_and_one_peter_paul_rubens//objectview.aspx?OID=110001985&collID=11&dd1=11)

That's right. It's the Peter Paul Rubens family (c. 1637), taking the kid for a walk on the LEASH.

[mockingbirdq.livejournal.com]

They were referred to as "leads" in England, weren't they? No only did they keep children corraled but it allowed them to walk upright before they were very steady. There was a lot of emphasis around this time on making children "human" by wrapping small infants to be completely straight and upright and encouraging early walking... Love the painting!

[herald-mari.livejournal.com]

I have to say I totally agree with your other post. I hate even to make a "honey, do we need some milk?" call at the grocery store.

And leashes on kids. Okay, I'm child free, and an only child, so what I know about child rearing, I know from training horses and dogs. (Actually I know nothing about it, so try to give no opinions, because I have a parrot. When he gets too noisy in his cage he goes, and he gets covered up. Then he whispers "I'm a good bird." until he gets uncovered. LOL!!!) But seriously, I put reins on my horse, and if I had a dog, he'd (or she'd) be leashed. My cats won't tolerate leashes. So while on some level I'm amused by the whole "leash your kid thing" (and we make jokes about leashing my mom so she doesn't wander all over the store and have me look for her, because inevitably she'll think about looking for something and I'm all get in - buy the damn stuff - get out when I go shopping...), but really, I kind of cringe and wonder inside.

[herald-mari.livejournal.com]

And oh no! LJ ate my < / sarcasm > tag after "training horses and dogs." I totally don't think it's the same.

[mockingbirdq.livejournal.com]

My oldest was always a child with no self preservation, so I did have a leash that looked like a monkey backpack he wore in certain instances - such as at Trade days or an art festival. Too many people and too many vehicles were a bad combination with a child who leaps before he looks. That said, we only used it a few times, when he was too big for a stroller (I HATE to see a 3 year old in a stroller with their feet scrapping the ground as it's pushed) but still needed lots of direction.

With my newest, I hoping our sling will work better by keeping him against my body and allowing me to better control grabby hands. I'd prefer to a leash actually.So far he's a lot more mellow than his brother so maybe it won't matter...

I don't think it's fair to say that in all cases using a leash on a toddler is a parenting fail. My sister has three kids: One would walk right beside her like a little gentleman from age one or so and never even try to touch anything or run away, another would never leave her sight or get into anything much but the third was a wild monkey who literally unlocked the front door and ran out of the house and into the street buck naked at age two. Yeah, my sister used a leash on that one :P Soe kids are just wired to act impulsively I think...

[a2zmom.livejournal.com]

YES!

Her youngest sounds just like my second one. Tell her to be prepared for many emergency room visits. (Zachary cracks his head open every two years like clock work...)

[a2zmom.livejournal.com]

Oh, I have missed you!

And we actually did leash Zachary because he was fucking crazy. Although the leash was held in a parent's hand as if he was a cute, crazy puppy. As soon as he could walk (13 months) he never, never, NEVER sat in the stroller again. (oh and the day he started to walk was also the day he started to run and walk backwards.) We used the stroller to cart packages. Zachary, otoh, would dash off. Now, when both parents were there this wasn't a problem, but often it was just my husband, Aaron (who also refused to go in the stroller) and mad man Zachary.

It wasn't a question of discipline - it was just doddle's personality and we had to learn to deal with it.

Zachary was the kind of kid who jumped out of the crib at six months, knocked down all the safety gates by eight months and as soon as he could crawl, began crawling up and down the stairs so we would have to follow him to ensure he didn't kill himself.

That whole extreme roller blading thing he does was not exactly an unexpected development.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

*smoooooooooch*

That's a lot like The Boy, too. I was SERIOUSLY limited where I could go with him, but I just saw that as the way it is with kids. THEN AGAIN, I lived in Utah, where it's crawling with kids and every adult is a parent looking out for all of the kids. That's a big plus, for sure.

[violethamster.livejournal.com]

If I had a child I would leash it, because I'm lazy and I think it would be kind of funny. I would draw the line at using a ball gag on it, though.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

I LOVE YOU WITH ALL OF MY HEART OMG LAUGHING SO HARD.

(Really, a choke chain should suffice, though. Just get it right under their jaw. Saying "no" and removing a kid from danger is way harder than a quick jerk of the chain, amirite?)

[oaktree89.livejournal.com]

Honestly? I don't love the idea of leashing a child, but can see how it might seem reasonable to a harried parent with a lot of children and many things to do with hir hands at one time.

When I see a kid of a leash, I'm more "Wtf? that is a PERSON on a LEASH this is mildly hilarious" than anything else. I'm not super outraged, but I certainly don't approve of the leashing of children :P

ANYWAY.

[oaktree89.livejournal.com]

Also! I feel like I should say- I was not leashed as a child, I never personally knew anyone who was/did, and I have no children.

[siapom.livejournal.com]

My opinion is probably even less popular than the leash. I'm all for leave the damn kid(s) at home if you can't get him/her to behave himself/herself in public. And, to continue with my (probably inappropriate) honesty, if the adult is not adult enough to parent the child, then said parent needs to stay at home and buy everything via online and tv shopping networks. *grumbles*

Sorry. I fully admit to not being child oriented; and, therefore, not the most child tolerant person on the planet. But the things that I see, hear, etc., make me cringe. My parents would have had my butt in the car so fast that you would have sworn Superman had just cruised by at something akin to the speed of light. If, by some odd chance, my sister or I started to act up, they would leave before forcing our behavior upon the innocent public.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

UM, THAT IS ULTIMATELY MY THOUGHT, TOO. I've said that in several threads here and my other post. Does it suck? YES. But is it necessary? YES. Also, you shouldn't take unruly kids to restaurants, etc. etc. <-- more asshole-ishness on my part. My kids didn't go to restaurants until they could sit quietly at the table and color and not throw things. YOU'RE WELCOME, WORLD. Ha.

And so you know, the stuff you're saying is how I feel AND I HAVE BABIES. Well, they're older now, but you get my point.

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

I'm not in love with the idea of leashing, but I have seen mothers with an active toddler or with an active toddler (or two) and a baby in a carriage who could use a baby leash, if only to keep their toddlers from rushing out into the street while Mommy is jouncing the baby carriage to try and get little Michael or little Emma to quiet down. I've been at the crosswalk on at least two occasions when a car was zooming at 70 mph through the center of town--where the speed limit is 25 mph--and put up my arm as a barrier just in the nick of time to keep the toddler from rushing out into the street and under the wheels of the oncoming speeder. One mother yelled at me for getting in her toddler's way. The other one realized what had almost happened, apologized, thanked me and grabbed hold of the toddler with one hand while trying to steer the stroller with the other. (Carriages and strollers are singularly unsuited for one-handed steering. Though they SHOULD be suited for it.)

While I would think that kids could be taught to walk by their parents' sides and not rush out in front of traffic, this sadly does not seem to happen. At least not in my town. So I'm pro-leashing, because I've seen how easy it would be for the kids to go from almost being killed to the real thing.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Oy, that's a hard situation to be in. I can't believe the mom's first reaction was to yell at you, what the hell? Maybe it's because I grew up in a large family where we all knew to look out for each other, or because of the culture of family and community I was raised in, but that's had an affect on how I think people should treat kids, theirs or otherwise. I'd love it if a stranger tried to help my child, that's wonderful.

...I still won't leash a kid, though. :D (Oooh, worst moment with a stroller, I had my 2 year old in the jogging stroller and my Weimareiner on a leash with the other hand. UM, TRIED THAT ONCE. Never did it again.)

[jerusha]

I don't have kids, so I probably shouldn't speak, but...leashes always make me uncomfortable. I don't want to say I will never, ever use one (because as soon as I say that, I will end up doing it), but I don't think I would ever be comfortable using one.

That said! Your journal, your opinion. Even if I thought you were nuts for holding the opinion you do (which I don't)...we're right back to "your journal, your opinion". But then, maybe I'm weird.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Pssht, I'm of the "it takes a village" mindset, so I never mind childless people saying their thoughts!

And I can support your weirdness. hahahaha.

[killiara.livejournal.com]

Sometimes, with some children, it can be neccisary. But it's not an instead of direct parental supervision, it's in addition to because the kid moves way too fast and does not understand that he shouldn't be running into the street/into another person's house/ into danger and dosen't get that holding mom's hand is a constant, not a sometimes thing.

It can also be a little helpful with kids on the autistic scale with skin sensitivity to the point where holding the hand hurts them.

Can leashing children be abused? YES. Can it be a helpful and useful tool in the hands of an attentive mother with two children, both of them 'problem'? Yes.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

My sister, who is considered "extremely autistic" and REFUSES to be touched by strangers, or anyone other than her mother, brother, me, and a favorite aid, somehow managed to make it to her 20s without a leash.

I know that people are trying to give good reasons for them, and hey, if they're comfortable with them, there you go. But I can think of two or three counters for every excuse people are giving me, so I'm just not convinced. Probably won't ever be.

Just my thoughts, etc. etc.