In which I ramble on about RPS, the do's the don'ts, the wills the won'ts

[stoney321]

First off, glad no one got pissed at my last post, and thanks for the discussion. Feel free to spam that post, if you have more to say.

I'm going to take a sharp, wrong-turn (if loving RPS is wrong, I don't wanna be...) from Jesus-speak to my latest obsession: RPS. Don't get me wrong (um, have I started yet? Is this thing on?): I've never thought RPS (or RPF) was reprehensible, or morally wrong, or whatever. Because no matter how many facts about the real person you know, you don't *know* them. You are creating a tale, it isn't *real* although it may come amazingly close. So, for those that are squicked by RPS(F), and I know there are a lot of you out there, is it because of the "R?" Because I'm here to tell you: it AIN'T real. Not until I find the right lamp and give it a good rub, that is.


There are certain characters from certain shows that I *love* reading RPS about. *cough*Vincent Kartheiser*cough* And there are those that I don't. Having said that, I have some people on my flist that I ADORE that write the characters I don't read. And I've wondered lately why not. What is it about those famous people that makes me not want to peep at their sex-lives? I loved the character onscreen, after all. crazydiamondsue and I have talked about and around this many times. I... Hmmm. People like (for example) Christian Kane. I *love* the character Lindsey from Angel. Found him sexy, smart, interesting. But I'm not so interested in following "Christian Kane" around. But. Someone (neverneverfic?) wrote a SMOKING hot fic with VK/DB/CK that made me break out in a sweat. But I don't seek him out. Just... not my bag. Even though I have lovely people around here that write him, and write him WELL. I'd warrant that there are things *I* write that they don't enjoy, and no harm done. Even if I think it's the best thing I've written, whatever. We all have our tastes.

But here's where I think it really lies with me: TV stars vs. Move stars. Somehow, I feel more intimate, more friendly with the TV stars. Is it because I "bring them into my home?" Mainly. Is it because I pour over season after season of Buffy and Angel, listen to the commentaries and become "friends" with them? Dude, I know that sounds lame and creepy, but you *know* you know what I'm talking 'bout, Willis. And Movie stars... Well, they just do a better job of acting in RL, don't they? They seem more manufactured. *cough*Tom Cruise*cough* TV stars don't have such a PR campaign. Well, except for Jennifer Love Hewitt, and one day we'll figure out just how well she sucks dick, because come ON.

And as lame as this is going to sound, I get nervous with most TV character RPS. (Except for Tom Welling, because he's a fucking STAR, baby, and I don't read Clex because I'm scared of my image of TW being tarnished. And I'm a Mega-Dork.) Part of me (the irrational part) feels like I'm reading a fic about a close friend. Or because I have this picture in my mind, and it's getting screwed around with, and I *liked* that picture in my mind, I thank you, and ... Waaah.

But on the flip side, I know I'm missing out on some REALLY good fic. Because (points above) it's FICTION, RPS haters. David Boreanaz and Nicky Brendon aren't gay. They aren't fucking each other. But... Sorry. Just got a mental image of the pretty. *sigh* Or... ( fill in with names here ) This is not meant as a character bash, a writer bash, a PREDILECTION bash, or any such thing. This is me laying out the whizzing thoughts in my head. I guess... I want to cuddle my dolls and not let other kids play with them? Huh. I'm a brat.

And then there's that thing I have about not wanting to read a lot of a particular pairing because *I* am writing that pairing. And I'm afraid I'm going to lift ideas, or be influenced by that writer's vision. Does anyone else think that? An example for this would be kita0160 and ros_fod's fics about JM/VK. It's such a fully realized universe, that there are times if I start to sketch out a story, I start to pull "facts" from their universe. And man, I didn't get permission to play with their dolls, you know? And maybe their dolls are a bit different than mine? And then when is it that I'm just writing an homage to those girls, and not writing my original image, but maybe... Gah. Is any of this making sense? Am I trying to say I respect the other's vision and don't want to ruin it, too? Yeah, there's a lot of that. And there's mixed in my own chin-jutting self-preservation thrown in to complicate matters further.

I'll give you another example: Ewan and Hayden. I have a very clear idea of those two (made-up lovers) boys in my head, and their relationship dynamics. And there is a LOT of RPS being written about them. Some of it is fucking awful. And there are some that blow me away. But they see them as particular characters, and I... just don't. So I may stop reading someone's fic, even though they are fantastic writers, because I have this niggling thought that it will influence me. But then there's something that is SO unique, so opposite but well articulated that I just can't help it. The "Color of Wheat" series by ethrosdemon and hackthis is what I'm talking about. They have EVERYBODY there: Viggo/Orli, Tom/Michael, hell, Jake Gyllenhaal just showed up. And it's fucking crackfantastic.

And you may have noticed that in my last RPS fic, the James Marsters/Vincent Kartheiser fic, that I had them around other celebrities. And part of me worries that it's copying somehow? But then, I could just SEE it. *shrugs* Maybe I'm just trying to figure out what I think about writing, period. I've just recently decided that I'm just a vanilla writer. Period. I like writing "backside" over ass. I like writing "erection" instead of cock. Sometimes cock will do, but not often. For *me.* But when I read? GIMMIE THE DIRTY WORDS. Doesn't bother me. (Unless there's a leaking or weeping cock. Or warm, soupy egression. *hurls and readies penicillin shot*) But I know this is just my thing, for the most part. Well, not the soup. We're all on board with that being horribly, HORRIBLY wrong as a word choice.

I cannot stress enough that I appreciate the enormous amount of talent on my flist in the RPS world. Just because I'm not reading your particular fic, doesn't mean I don't recognize the talent there. I just may be absorbed in something else, or, not as into the pairing as you. And it's a fair trade, as I know there are a lot of folks on MY flist who don't read a lot of what I put out there. (But goddamit, my incest/vampire/orphanage MUSICAL set in Calcutta is fucking PERFECTION! Heh.) All's fair, man.


But I want to hear the whys and why nots on RPS from you. What about it gets you going? Or, on the converse side (quarter-tops), what about it squicks you? For those into it: Why *that* pair(s)? How did you start? Who did you first start reading? What are you reading now? Why aren't you reccing the good shit to me? Heee! Spam away! It's too hot to play... outside. Rhyming is cool!

(And it should go without saying: no bashing posters for liking/not liking something. It's okay to say that you feel a certain way about the topic, but you shouldn't insult someone for their likes/dislikes, mm'kay? Let the games begin!)

CRAP! Also: I need some Hayden Christensen/Ian Sommerhlederbergmanstein RPS. May have to get on that... Because Boone? Is a dirty rotten sister fucker, and Hayden wants to talk about wanting his daddy/brother!figure. I'm wrong.

Comments

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[trepkos.livejournal.com]

I don't want to read about characters I don't care about.
And if its a fictional character, that's OK.
But if it's a real person I'm reading about, I wouldn't want to read if I didn't care about them, and it follows that I can't help thinking how they might feel if they read it, or read about it... and it seems like some of them might be OK with it and some of them might be really upset by it...
I've read some... but I'm not happy with myself for doing it.
I know they're just like made-up characters in RPS, but if I believed that, while I was reading it, I wouldn't want to bother reading...
...does that make any sense?

(frozen)

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

It does. I'm not *looking* for Kevin Spacey RPS because I'm not interested in his sex life. But. he keeps popping up (humorously) in a few fics I'm reading, and it makes me laugh. But I don't seek him out.

And the whole "I wonder what they would think if they saw this" is an interesting (and, ME, TOO!) idea, because I wonder if subconsciously you(we) think you'll meet him? And he'll *know* you read about him and a Thai hooker doing things with weasels? And then you just blew your shot at being friends in RL? Just me?

Am I seriously the only person here that has imaginary conversations with celebrities while I shower?

HA HA HA!!

[southernbangel.livejournal.com]

I don't like RPS myself because to me, it seems too real. (No f'n joke, yeah?) What I mean is, and please excuse the incoherentness of my answer, when I read fanfiction, whatever pairing it may be, I picture the character(s) who, in my mind, are completely separate from the actor(s). If I read a B/A fic, I don't picture SMG-as-Buffy and DB-as-Angel; I picture Buffy and Angel. Same for any other characters. A hot A/S fic? I see *Angel* screwing *Spike* into the mattress, not DB fucking JM. Logically I *know* that when I picture Angel I'm picturing DB because hey, he is the actor. Angel may look like DB but he is *not* DB. He has his own quirks and foibles which lets me differentiate between the actor and the character.

So with RPS, I don't have that, I guess you could call "safety net" of the line between character and actor. With a DB/CK fic, you can only picture DB and CK... and for me, I'm not comfortable doing that. Yes, it is a made-up story (DB and CK didn't really get it on at a con... we don't think *g*) and the authors will twist the characters into what they see as DB and CK, but to me, it's still DB and CK, actors that I'm fond of but don't particularly want to imagine in a sexual relationship (unless, of course, it is a DB/Lee fic then all is good *g*). It doesn't mean that people who do like it are icky or whatever nonsense people say. (Believe me, I get plenty of "God, that pairing is so dumb!" for my OTP; I'm certainly not about to bash someone else) It's just not my cup of tea. B/A fics aren't for everyone and neither is RPS.

But hey, if it makes you happy, I say go for it.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

No, no, I understand what you are saying. I *see* Buffy, not Sarah. I know just what you mean. And when I read about David taking Vincent to task for not doing him right and proper, boy, I see David and Vinnie. Mmmm. Naked, muscles flexing... Ha! So, point taken and totally understood.

So, now I'll ask you the second portion of the RPS "debate" up there: is there a difference between the TV Star and Movie Star in your head? Are movie stars more fictional for RPS? Say... Brad Pitt? Or fill in the blank with hot actor you love.

[swmbo.livejournal.com]

See, I don't think there's anything weird in liking RPS of some actors and not others, any more than in characters. And there are actors where I like reading RPS fic about them but don't read fic about their characters, and vice versa. WHY I like RPS about specific characters might be different, but I think...

It possibly simply goes into specific kinks I have, and which 'fit' those better, in roles. More like casting them for a script than anything else. And at some level, certain characteristics can become canon in larger RPS communities, such as in LotRPS. Jossverse RPS is significantly smaller, but even then you can get huge impact from a few fics - sometimes good, sometimes bad.

I have trouble writing/seeing James/Vinnie and not seeing Kita and Fod's, because they impacted me so hard. On the other hand, I can obviously picture Vince himself totally different when I write him with Orlando. So it makes no sense on that front.

But I am with you on the fact that I don't read the bulk of the fic on my flist, and it has nothing to do with the writers, only with my own weird tastes and randomness about when I read fic and what it'll be. Like the fact that I wrote Lost fic but I do not READ Lost fic and still have no desire to whatsoever. And the fic I read most is in fandoms I don't write in and often can't even imagine writing in. My head is a crazy place.

You ask I Babble

[bitchygrrl.livejournal.com]

I just started reading RPS 2 weeks ago. I'd always avoided it because it seems on some level invasive, and frankly I feel a little guilty. Even-though we know this doesn't happen I have to wonder how the actors feel about it. I mean I wouldn't want a character w/ my name doing things I didn't like. That said I will still read it, because it is my guilty pleasure. Ewan/Hayden did it, they are the only pairing I read. Well yesterday I saw somebody's *cough, cough* VK/JM fic. I think EM/HC did it for me because they both seem to have be comfortable with a little ambiguity, so I buy it from them. There just seems to be something there. There is good fic about them that is well written, but I see HC as far more dom than he is generally written. My HC doll comes with full topping action, but most writers don't see him that way. *big sigh* Everyone has their vision. I usually just share my fic with friends hard-copy, but maybe I'll post. My toys get a little (okay more than a little) kinky. But my friends know me so no flame on my Angel/Connor fics. Sorry got off topic.As to reading other writers while working I understand what you mean about being influenced, when I'm writing I don't read anything in that arena, until I'm done my work. Especially w/ my screenwriting I feel it's important not copy even unconciously.

[hellziggy.livejournal.com]

Well I don't need to answer now because what southernbangel just said is exactly the thoughts I was trying to figure out how to phrase!
When I have read RPS I tend to picture them as the character I love, and then the language & actions don't fit.
But I also don't read fanfic about characters I don't care about either. For example, I've never watched West Wing, so I don't think I would get much enjoyment out of West Wing fic.
Of course lately I've started to make exceptions for James Marsters RPS, because I've become seriously obsessed with the man. And the fact that I'll be in the same room as him & hopefully meet him? Just makes it worse. I'm afraid I am going to either faint or totally try to molest him. (And now I'm thinking thoughts that I really shouldn't be thinking at work...) How many days is it until the end of August?

[mpoetess.livejournal.com]

RPS tends to be much like original slash (aka gay-themed stories about original characters, usually written by people who also write fanfic, and usually similar in style -- in a way that's hard to describe -- to fanfic) for me. In both cases it's hard for me to get into a lot of it because it seems like some of the shortcuts we use with fanfic -- both with plot and with character development -- are brought into a completely new situation where those shortcuts don't work.

A fanfic that concentrates mostly on the relationship and only touches on the plot aspects of the series in passing (yup, Spike's a vampire; he can play fun tricks while fucking in front of a mirror) is easy to get into because I already know the characters, know the universe, have a million and one associations with certain lines or pieces of history. Same with "Who is this guy and why do I care about seeing him fuck?" Joss did the character development for me, so the fanfic author doesn't need to make me give a damn about Xander before I'll invest myself in the story.

With original slash, or RPS, which is pretty close to original slash, there's a big "Why should I care about these characters" factor, that frequently isn't overcome enough for me to want to read on, or even want to read more of the same genre. I'm not suggesting all RPS or all original slash has this problem, but more that one thing I've noticed when I've read both and not been especially moved by the story, is that there's not enough there of the characters. There's names and some personality quirks, but they aren't developed over time, based on events and adventures that I also got to watch, as the characters in fanfic are, or the characters in mainstream novels are. It feels like that fanfic skills are being applied to a medium where they don't entirely fit.

OTOH, another reason I tend not to get into RPS or a lot of original slash is the actual genre -- I like my conflicted bisexual vampires and goofy conflicted post-teens in love with conflicted bisexual vampires. And witches, and werewolves, and all other sorts of fantasy and SF and horror-fantasy settings. So some of the non-attraction to RPF is me, and probably some of what seems like the fanfic-style problem is actually me just not being interested in the setting, and thus getting picky and dissatisfied with everything else as well. I have little interest in the entertainment industry as a story setting, which tends to make both actorfic and boyband fic fairly unsparkly to my roving eyes.

On the third hand, the one growing out of my ass, apparently, there is RPS and original slash with supernatural settings and themes, and I haven't really sought that out much either; I'm not sure how much of that is just brand-loyalty to certain existing fandoms, or apathy, or fear that the supernatural setting will be more like a supernatural trapping, to make the sex kinkier and the angst angstier, but not really a story about vampires and werewolves doing vampire and werewolf things.

(frozen)

[mpoetess.livejournal.com]

Am I seriously the only person here that has imaginary conversations with celebrities while I shower?

no

(frozen)

[inlovewithnight.livejournal.com]

Am I seriously the only person here that has imaginary conversations with celebrities while I shower?

Definitely not.

(frozen)

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

BWAH!! And let's just get this out there:

When I'm on David Letterman? He'll kiss my hand and hold it in both of his while he says "We'll be right back" and I'll make him laugh. HA HA! I think Oprah may restart her book club with new writers once I'm on, too.

I need public shame regularly, or I just get out of control.

(frozen)

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

*heaves sigh of relief*

HEEEE!

[mpoetess.livejournal.com]

All of which on reflection answered precisely zero of your questions, since RPS doesn't squick me at all, so mostly that was a lot of rambling on why I never seem to be able to get very interested in it, though I've dabbled in the reading end of the pool every so often, and played in RPF parody games (where it was definitely the high humor content, the fun of really trying to parody someone, that attracted me, and I tended to lose interest when things got serious and more like traditional RPF).

(frozen)

[mpoetess.livejournal.com]

*does not have imaginary conversations with characters (me with characters, I mean, not them withe ach other) when I'm in the shower either*

[southernbangel.livejournal.com]

I can see the difference between not liking TV actor RPS but liking movie actor RPS because like you said, with the TV actors it's almost like you know them because you see them on a weekly basis. When you're as invested in a show like BtVS/AtS as so many of the fans are, it's very easy for the actors to cross into that "familiar" territory. I don't really know SMG but sometimes I feel like I do just because her character and her show has had such an impact on my life. With Brad Pitt, not so much because even though I adore him, it's much easier for me to see him as "BRAD PITT, MOVIE STAR!" then "Brad Pitt, regular Joe."

Also, with movie stars they are constantly playing new, different characters, and these characters aren't ones you invite into your life each week. It's easy to distance yourself from them. "The Usual Suspects" is one of my favorite films, I don't obsess over it like I do BtVs/AtS. The actors from those shows seem much more personal to me than Kevin Spacey or Gabriel Byrne, thus I'm reluctant to read RPS about them because I don't have that distinction I do between Kevin Spacey and Kevin Spacey-as-Verbal/Keyser Soze.

I'm sorry, did I answer your questions at all? I have a tendency to ramble.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Hey, Tootsie-pop!

YES YES YES to your comment. I TOTALLY see Kita's and Fod's Vinnie/James. I felt so self-conscious with the last little peek at them, because man, hasn't it been DONE? You know? Not looking for sunshine up my ass, just recognizing weakness/strengths.

And yeah, when I write him somewhere, he becomes MINE, but it's like there's a shadow of someone else's characterization hanging over. Like a shimmer over a hot road.

ANd I do NOT read Lost fic, but I wrote one, and I've read a couple that I like *cough* so I know what you mean. I think I say this as a "please forgive" to the writers on my flist I adore, but don't always pick up every fic they write.

I like your thought on "casting." That's EXACTLY what it is. And I'd eat my shirt if I found a Viggo fic written in the past two years that didn't have him as a kook. Loveable and intriguing, but just... Viggo. And there ain't NOTHING wrong with that.

And yeah, to the kink aspect. Somethings I just want. Somethings I could do without, I thank you. (Hurt Connor and make him sad. Worship Vinnie and try to crack a smile. So, so different in my mind.)

(frozen)

[inlovewithnight.livejournal.com]

Oh, wait...I'm not sure the imaginary activity counts as a "conversation." ::innocent whistling:: Well, there are words exchanged. 'Sall good.

::runs off::

Re: You ask I Babble

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's that back of the mind (where did this come from?) that stops me cold some days.

Mmmm. Top Hayden. YES MA'AM. Tennis, people! Competitive as the day is long, and hooray for that!

[julia-here.livejournal.com]

I don't do RPF/S for a lot of reasons,and found myself agreeing particularly with mpoetess and southernbangel (Hi, Lee!) especially. I need the distance of pure fiction, and the context of fantasy/sf to get interested in the story (and oh, man, do I need story; almost all PWP is as boring to me as reading plumbing specs).

I have a lot of trouble getting into whole other aspects of fannish expression, too: very pornish manips, for instance. I feel as if I'm invading the privacy of the subject, in those cases, and it discomforts me. Whether or not it is an invasion of privacy is not the issue; I feel as if I'm peeping, it's a feeling I don't like, and so I avoid it.

Julia, fearing I may not be making sufficient sense

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

No, no, there was some good thinky stuff up there. The idea of liking the fantastical elements, that THAT is what turns you on with fic, be it fanfic/Joss or RPS/lack of fantasmagorical.

And the idea of SHORTCUTS. Yes indeedy. For a quickie? It works. But with lengthy, plotty fics? It's just a cheat, and I want to crawl inside the character, and they aren't LETTING me.

That just made a flag go up in my mind about the current RPS fic-series I'm reading by the girls above in the post - the actorworld fics. There are some shortcuts in the beginning, but the more you read, (the more they wrote) the more secret characterization is everywhere. I love that. How someone holds a door. How someone avoids ____ says alot about what's happening in their head.

It's fantastic. But rare.

And for the record? In case you didn't know this about me? I'm ALL about the parody. :-D

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Oh, GOOD point about playing new characters *cough* Jack Nicholson, hello? Give it a try, huh?*cough* and THAT being a reason why they aren't as... close? to us as our TV pals are.

I mean, we had seven years with Sarah as Buffy. Two hours with Brad as Mr. Smith. Big difference there. Innnnteresting!!

[mpoetess.livejournal.com]

In case you didn't know this about me? I'm ALL about the parody.

I would NEVER have known. :-P

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

See for me, I don't read RPS because they're real. And if the real (insert hot chick from my rotating list of 10) doesn't randomly drop into my lap and start making out with me, I just don't need to know specifics about whatever RPFictitous action is going on. It's real and it feels weird.

Plus, I've been on TV. And having been exposed to the world of Kita and Fod, I'm now vaguely squicked by the idea that someone out there is writing (for example) Dave/RegisPhilbin slash. And I start feeling guilt and sympathy over my own projection of actual celebrities possibly being squicked by folks RPFing them. Which, is probably pretty weird.

[sweptawaybayou.livejournal.com]

Well ...

I think you know which side of the fence I come down on the RPS debate. I love it. I read it. I write it. The boys play in my head nonfuckingstop and nevershutup. Oops. That might be just a little tmi.

I know its not real. I would never assume that David and Chris are lovers, but oh my, what a pretty picture that makes. I always ask people, which I did a few times at WriterCon, what, to them, is the difference between reading an AU fic where Spike and Angel are human and have jobs and gas pains and eat steak while out on their Saturday night dates and reading an RPS story where David fucks Chris through a bed?

And I always got/get the same answer.

Because its too real.

For me, as a writer, if I can make a story between David Boreanaz, Christian Kane and yes, Vincent Kartheiser (*g*) become TOO REAL for someone to read? Then I have acheived my goal. Because we KNOW they are not all having sex and drinking whiskey and fighting in hallways, but if I can make you think that they are? Yay. Me.

Its all fantasy. Its all creativety. Its all for the prettah.

My (at the time) bf asked me two questions one day ... if I was to have dinner with David *dies 1000 deaths* and he found out that I wrote RPS about him, what would I say?

I would tell him to stop acting like he sleeps with Chris, if he doesn't want people to think that he does.

And if David asked me to stop, would I?

Yes. Of course. Dude. If DAVIDFUCKINGBOREANAZ called me up and asked me to stop writing RPS about him I would print off all my stories, delete my files and have a stroke. In that order. But yes, only for him.

So there you have my two cents.

**loves you in that good RPFS style**

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

PWP is what I read late at night when I can't get to sleep. I like SOMETHING happening aside from thrusting, I thank you.

And I hear you on the peeping aspect. Oh, the pornish manips! GAH!! I... feel they are just like what you said. It's the pencil drawings that make me most uncomfortable. Makes me think of someone doodling in highschool on a pad and putting their face on Superman's or something. Not sure how to articulate thoughts on THAT, but... yeah. Not my bag.

I'm fine without the fantastical, but gimmie a story. Make them *do* or *say* something, please. I like those fics best of all.