Religion rant, and a question for you
Nov. 27th, 2007 02:52 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
So, most of you know that I'm writing about growing up in the Mormon church, both for NaNoWriMo and potential publication. In researching data to bolster my memories, etc. I came across one of the most bizarre things ever as "proof that the Book of Mormon" is historically, archaeologically, geographically, language-ography (is there a word for a language being an actual language?) truthful.
(For the record: no it isn't. Um, it's been shown time and again to be made up, those civilizations didn't exist, the purported language used is an amalgam of multiple other languages, and on and on. Also? Native American DNA isn't related IN ANY WAY to the Jews. Uh... that's what they believe. *cough*)
So, for those familiar with the story, a young man named Joseph was visited at night once a year for four years, instructed on his new lot in life as translator for "A New Testament of Jesus Christ," aka the Book of Mormon. In upstate New York, Joseph dug into a hill (Cumorah) and pulled out of a reinforced box - built into the hillside - a "book" made of gold plates. This book would be translated *cough* and become the 531 pages describing in excruciating detail of the mysterious and ancient people (this is the ONLY record of their "existence," mind) of the Americas. 531 paper pages are heavy enough, but these were on GOLD. PLATES. Lately, I've seen reference to this being changed from gold to a tin/copper alloy. <-- a world of what the fuck? This is 600BC. Tin and copper alloy.
But that's not the crazy stuff. The craziness is this - that those golden (possibly tin/copper alloy) plates were bound (and this is the important part!) with D-RINGS. Which shows that truly, God works in mysterious ways, for he made the Jewish Indians (of which there is but one record that no one has EVER laid eyes on and God took back to heaven with him) the original inventors of... a holy Trapper Keeper.
Yea verily! Behold the ribbed metal prongs - made cleverly of a tin/copper alloy that lo, wast smelted in vast pottery containers. Clear your hearts and fingers, for when the mighty d-rings snap closed, and yea verily I do sayeth unto you that thou wilt be caught unawares and feel a mighty pinch upon your flesh, and the flesh of your fathers if they do stand near unto you, for I am mighty and have giveth unto this, my Lost Tribe, the power and keeping of the Trapper, until time doth end and the judgment begins.
And divers others shall come forth with their circular binders, their copper-tin alloy that doth split in twain once it hast been threaded through a hole, and folded back not unlike the palm fronds to split apart with a high wind. But these are not welcome in my sight, for they were not brought forth unto the multitudes by my Jewish Indian engineers. Of which there is but one record, and I, the Lord your God, am sorry to sayeth that thou are filthy in thine soul, not unlike the swine and the swineherd who does tend the swine, and thou canst see it never. Nyaheth nyaheth nyaeth. I am the Alpha and the Omega of Mead.
~The Second Book of Caucasians 15: 2-3
This guy goes on to show that there were patents given 10 whole years after Joseph dug up and translated the book, which... what's his point? That Joseph should have been given the patent? The Jewish Indians should have? Because if it's the first, I will be SO HAPPY, because that means JOSEPH invented them (and they weren't found, ahem) and that just strengthens the whole "uh... you believe WHAT?" side of the argument. What I get from his going on about patents being awarded "after the fact" is that LOTS of people had that same idea for D-rings to bind paper. It's highly plausible that a guy visiting printing offices routinely would be exposed to PAPER BINDING ITEMS. Also: everyone awarded a patent for versions of the D-ring were in the PRINTING BUSINESS.
...it's not just me, right? You can see this, too? Or are you getting something else from his nattering on about patents? (Also, it takes FOR.EV.ER. for patents to go through, especially back then. Also, all the patents from July 1790 to July 1836 issued from the main building - it used to be ONE person that handled the nation's patents - were destroyed by fire. So people had to resubmit their patents. A lot of them were never recovered/resubmitted and are called the X-Patents.)
Finally: OCCAM'S RAZOR, PEOPLE. (The simplest answer is usually correct.) This is a lot of dancing and a lot of rig-a-morole to just say that you're justified in believing some wackadoo crap. And for the record: I used to believe WHOLE HEARTEDLY in this crap. And then I got smart. Yay, me! Wow. D-RING BINDERS!!! The hell?
(For the record: no it isn't. Um, it's been shown time and again to be made up, those civilizations didn't exist, the purported language used is an amalgam of multiple other languages, and on and on. Also? Native American DNA isn't related IN ANY WAY to the Jews. Uh... that's what they believe. *cough*)
So, for those familiar with the story, a young man named Joseph was visited at night once a year for four years, instructed on his new lot in life as translator for "A New Testament of Jesus Christ," aka the Book of Mormon. In upstate New York, Joseph dug into a hill (Cumorah) and pulled out of a reinforced box - built into the hillside - a "book" made of gold plates. This book would be translated *cough* and become the 531 pages describing in excruciating detail of the mysterious and ancient people (this is the ONLY record of their "existence," mind) of the Americas. 531 paper pages are heavy enough, but these were on GOLD. PLATES. Lately, I've seen reference to this being changed from gold to a tin/copper alloy. <-- a world of what the fuck? This is 600BC. Tin and copper alloy.
But that's not the crazy stuff. The craziness is this - that those golden (possibly tin/copper alloy) plates were bound (and this is the important part!) with D-RINGS. Which shows that truly, God works in mysterious ways, for he made the Jewish Indians (of which there is but one record that no one has EVER laid eyes on and God took back to heaven with him) the original inventors of... a holy Trapper Keeper.
Yea verily! Behold the ribbed metal prongs - made cleverly of a tin/copper alloy that lo, wast smelted in vast pottery containers. Clear your hearts and fingers, for when the mighty d-rings snap closed, and yea verily I do sayeth unto you that thou wilt be caught unawares and feel a mighty pinch upon your flesh, and the flesh of your fathers if they do stand near unto you, for I am mighty and have giveth unto this, my Lost Tribe, the power and keeping of the Trapper, until time doth end and the judgment begins.
And divers others shall come forth with their circular binders, their copper-tin alloy that doth split in twain once it hast been threaded through a hole, and folded back not unlike the palm fronds to split apart with a high wind. But these are not welcome in my sight, for they were not brought forth unto the multitudes by my Jewish Indian engineers. Of which there is but one record, and I, the Lord your God, am sorry to sayeth that thou are filthy in thine soul, not unlike the swine and the swineherd who does tend the swine, and thou canst see it never. Nyaheth nyaheth nyaeth. I am the Alpha and the Omega of Mead.
~The Second Book of Caucasians 15: 2-3
This guy goes on to show that there were patents given 10 whole years after Joseph dug up and translated the book, which... what's his point? That Joseph should have been given the patent? The Jewish Indians should have? Because if it's the first, I will be SO HAPPY, because that means JOSEPH invented them (and they weren't found, ahem) and that just strengthens the whole "uh... you believe WHAT?" side of the argument. What I get from his going on about patents being awarded "after the fact" is that LOTS of people had that same idea for D-rings to bind paper. It's highly plausible that a guy visiting printing offices routinely would be exposed to PAPER BINDING ITEMS. Also: everyone awarded a patent for versions of the D-ring were in the PRINTING BUSINESS.
...it's not just me, right? You can see this, too? Or are you getting something else from his nattering on about patents? (Also, it takes FOR.EV.ER. for patents to go through, especially back then. Also, all the patents from July 1790 to July 1836 issued from the main building - it used to be ONE person that handled the nation's patents - were destroyed by fire. So people had to resubmit their patents. A lot of them were never recovered/resubmitted and are called the X-Patents.)
Finally: OCCAM'S RAZOR, PEOPLE. (The simplest answer is usually correct.) This is a lot of dancing and a lot of rig-a-morole to just say that you're justified in believing some wackadoo crap. And for the record: I used to believe WHOLE HEARTEDLY in this crap. And then I got smart. Yay, me! Wow. D-RING BINDERS!!! The hell?
no subject
Date: 2007-11-27 09:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-27 09:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-27 09:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-27 09:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-27 09:21 pm (UTC)OCCAM'S RAZOR. FTW.
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Date: 2007-11-27 09:31 pm (UTC)What the friggity fuck!!?
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Date: 2007-11-27 09:24 pm (UTC)Linguistically?
a world of what the fuck? This is 600BC. Tin and copper alloy.
Tin/copper alloy = bronze. Been around since 4000 BC or so. ;-)
Apart from that, very interesting (in a WTF way) indeed. D-rings? Jewish Indians?
OCCAM'S RAZOR, PEOPLE.
I really wish they would hang THAT on every classroom and courtroom wall. And I'm really looking forward to that book of yours.
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Date: 2007-11-27 09:34 pm (UTC)And I need to research the use of bronze in the Americas in 600 BC. I don't remember hearing of any evidence of that from the ancient civilizations in the Yucatan... (Which is now where the Mormon church claims the Jewish Indians lived. And yet somehow, they managed to make it aaaaaaaall the way up to Upstate New York with their 2 ton golden journal/trapper keeper...)
GAH!! *clings to you and your sanity, omg*
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Date: 2007-11-27 09:28 pm (UTC)Conclusion: people are stupid.
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Date: 2007-11-27 09:35 pm (UTC)It's like a modern Pan orgy, with disco lights! (And your icon is cracking me up)
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Date: 2007-11-27 09:33 pm (UTC)That was my first semester at BYU. And that was my first solid indication that something was very VERY wrong with my life. The second indication was when Brother Merrill said it didn't matter who you married, as long as it was in the temple because in the Celestial Kingdom you can repick your eternal spouses anyway and everything we learned from Primary and Saturday's Warrior was bull.
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Date: 2007-11-27 09:38 pm (UTC)I found a quote from... Dallin H. Oaks? I think. Him or freaking Hugh Nibley that said something like, "Even if it turns out that the Nephites aren't related to the Jews, it doesn't take away from the truth of the Book of Mormon." UM, YES IT DOES!!!!!
Brother Merrill said WHAT about new spouses?!?! Oh my GOD. He's freaking insane! (He was right about Saturday's Warrior, however)
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Date: 2007-11-27 09:40 pm (UTC)Umm, someone mentioned "linguistically" but I also put forth "etymologically."
I've never understood the Mormon religion. I've talked to Mormon people, read the Book of Mormon (my brother, in one of his drug induced curiosities ordered it from the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints) and a couple other publications that tried to explain what the Mormons believed. I just...didn't get it.
Then I read The God Makers and thought, "Okay. Crazy people got together and created a religion based on the precepts laid down by Masons?" Freaky.
*shrug*
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Date: 2007-11-27 10:13 pm (UTC)And that's pretty much what they are, with some wanna be Jewish tones, some Free Thinking, and the ability to have lots of sex in the age of repression. WOW.
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Date: 2007-11-27 10:01 pm (UTC)Yeesh.
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Date: 2007-11-27 10:10 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2007-11-27 10:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-28 12:11 am (UTC)(And now I'm thinking of The Holy Hand Grenade)
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Date: 2007-11-27 10:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-28 12:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-27 11:06 pm (UTC)Somebody's confused, and I'm honestly not sure who.
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Date: 2007-11-28 12:13 am (UTC)O_O
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From:no subject
Date: 2007-11-27 11:23 pm (UTC)I give Mormons points for creative thinking.
And I am disappointed that you don't think I'm related to Native Americans. I was planning to claim that I am, in fact, The Last of the Mohicans. (Also, tap into that casino money. Damn.)
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Date: 2007-11-28 12:14 am (UTC)And I'm sorry, but I've seen you and you just don't have the Innuit look. Wait, they're supposed to be Jews from the Tower of Babylon days... (I'm not making any of this up!! WHAT THE HELL.)
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Date: 2007-11-27 11:45 pm (UTC)Oh, I saw this clip from Sweeney Todd (http://www.iesb.net/index.php?option=com_seyret&Itemid=227&task=videodirectlink&id=194) and thought of you.
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Date: 2007-11-28 12:16 am (UTC)Hahaha! Thank you for the link, I hadn't seen those yet.
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Date: 2007-11-28 12:40 am (UTC)*hugs* So glad you got smart.=)
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Date: 2007-11-28 04:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-28 12:51 am (UTC)If you'd like to see another example of such stupidity, check out this one. I've been reading John Scalzi's blog for a while now. He's a science fiction writer but even if you don't read his books (which to date I have not -- I plan to fix that soon) he's a great blog writer. His readers begged him to visit the Creation Museum which is close to his home. I assume you're familiar with the Creation Museum? A museum dedicated to the proposition that the Earth was, in fact, created just as described in Genesis? Well, Scalzi went there and came back with a photographic report, filled with delicious snark. I learned things from his report that stunned me. Such as, thorns did not exist until Adam's fall from grace. Did you know that? If not, file it away under Facts From the Crazy Zone.
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Date: 2007-11-28 04:20 am (UTC)I will be pouring over that site in the morning, yes ma'am. (THank you for the link!)
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Date: 2007-11-28 03:28 am (UTC)I greatly enjoy your translation of the Book of Mormon. You should write your own version, and when people get pissy about it all you'd have to do is accuse them of being heretics or something.
A couple of Mormons creeped me right out about a month or so ago. Two guys who were clean-cut and attractive much in the plasticy way that Stepford Wives are appeared on my doorstep, pitch black outside and I'm off the main road so I don't even know how they realized there was a house here, and politely but persistently harassed me to let them come in the house and let them steal my soul and turn me into a robot. I'm paraphrasing a little. Then the next morning I noticed dress shoe footprints in the flowerbeds in front of a couple of my windows. o_O
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Date: 2007-11-28 04:19 am (UTC)(They totally wanted to steal your soul. Remember Kathy, Buffy's roommate? How she seemed so clean cut and nice? And how she was EVIL? I think they're just like that.)
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Date: 2007-11-28 03:42 am (UTC)On a related note, I'm thinking about asking for this (http://www.amazon.com/Escape-Carolyn-Jessop/dp/0767927567/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196220790&sr=8-1) for Christmas. I dunno. It looks like it might be an interesting read.
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Date: 2007-11-28 04:18 am (UTC)(If you can find an old copy of In My Father's House, that's the really interesting one.)
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Date: 2007-11-28 05:50 am (UTC)Holy trapper keepers. *giggles* Makes me long for the 80's all over again. *giggles some more*
I will also say that Mitt Romney doesn't sound like any Mormon I know.
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Date: 2007-11-28 03:07 pm (UTC)And man, you've run the gamut on religions, huh? (Hahahaha, Navoo! Oh my gosh, I remember a youth field trip there. Um, Joseph was a 32nd Degree Mason, a fact most Mormons aren't familiar with, or dismiss as irrelevant.)
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Date: 2007-11-28 02:24 pm (UTC)<3 <3 <3
ILU, STONEY!
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Date: 2007-11-29 04:49 pm (UTC)(Oh, those were the Jaredites, who migrated from the Tower of Babel via ASIA. Um....)
But please remember, I invented Post It Notes. [/Romy] (or did we determine that was Michelle?)
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Date: 2007-11-28 05:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-11-28 09:12 pm (UTC)As for the BoM, you're right - it's an incredibly weak link, but unfortunately, they can't see that. Their entire belief system centers on that book being exactly what Joe Smith said it was, period. One of their prophets (Joseph F. Smith, a complete nutjob) even said (without irony, I might add) that the entire church hangs on Joseph Smith's story being true or not, that there was no room for grey on this.
And one of the points I'm attempting to make in this (hopefully published) book I'm writing is that they would be FAR more successful (and less frightening/odd) if they took the magic/religion out of their message and focused on their ideals of family being the center of your life, service for your fellow man - and with a smile, or it doesn't count. They do those things very well.
If you meet missionaries, you just smile and tell them no thanks. They'll try, but they'll get it. They get LOADS of no's.
My family is sad that I'm not active, and that my kids (I have three small children) aren't being raised Mormon, and I think they have hope that I'll "come back to my senses." And here I am hoping they would finally come to theirs...
I've always had reservations about some things in the LDS church (the Trinity, priesthood, etc.) and finally stopped listening to them, and listened to everyone around me. Then I came to the conclusion that there's nothing after living here, and I'm very happy knowing that. :)
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From:Re: The Sticks REVEALED!!
Date: 2007-11-28 10:02 pm (UTC)(Also, I just sent you the first draft of Stallioncrest. WHOOPIE!)
Re: The Sticks REVEALED!!
From:no subject
Date: 2007-12-19 06:01 am (UTC)I've been very impressed at how dedicated, nice and polite the Mormon missionaries are, as well as how they have such great family & community ties. If only their religion wasn't so batshit fucking insane and completely unbelievable. I mean seriously, gold plates that we have no evidence of now? Seeing stones, which we also have no evidence of? But most of all, the whole thing with the Native Americans being the lost tribe of Israel - despite all the DNA evidence that this is complete bullshit, Mormons still steadfastly refuse to see the reality of the situation.
Also, hey, can you explain something to me? If the Word of Wisdom says "no hot beverages", why are you only not supposed to drink coffee and black/green tea, but cocoa and herbal tea is okay? I mean, if you're gonna be crazy with your religious beliefs, at least be crazily consistent.
Anyways, sorry to spam your LJ. Just wanted to say that I like your posts on this subject. :)
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Date: 2007-12-19 01:33 pm (UTC)One of the points I'm making with my book is that yes, they ARE so nice and sweet and kind and dedicated to helping people and loving their families. And they also believe absolute horseshit. :D
If you need to get rid of the missionaries, tell them you've been reading Fawn Brodie's "No Man Knows My History" and that you believe Joseph Smith was a pedophile and a pervert and you're not interested. That should get them gaping and sweating. *g* (And never open your door to them! They're trained to hold on like pit bulls!)
Your icon is hysterical, btw!
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