Allow me to stick my neck out.

[stoney321]

This woman ought to be beat over the head with a large stick. You know what pisses me off about a lot of these "born again" Christians? The fact that they don't know dick about Jesus. (And I would love a t-shirt or bumper sticker that read "You don't know dick about Jesus." I predict that would be a big seller.) If you are a Christian (and please, spare me the "Christians are being persecuted b.s. They aren't. They're being questioned and challenged on some beliefs, which does not translate into persecution) that means that you aspire to be Christ-like. Not Paul-like, not Solomon-like, not King David-like.

Instead of focusing on the words of the woman-hating Apostle Paul, how about focusing on what JESUS said? Because, my guess? And I'm going out on a limb here, Christianity is actually based on Jesus, not the other schleps. I know, I know, crazy talk. For those of you doing it right? Good for you. For those of you not? Allow me.

Spare the rod, spoil the child, blah blah blah. Are you seriously going to model your life after a mindset more than 2000 years old, when people didn't think there was anything wrong with having women be beneath the importance of livestock? The glory of God is intelligence, people, and our brains were designed to grow and evolve. Anyhoodle....

Jesus' stance on how to treat children, and imo, THIS does away with the whole OT training on child-rearing. Which, you know, Jesus himself said (atheists, bear with me) that He came to bring about a new law.

• Matthew 18 - the whole beginning of this. 1-2 "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them.


• 6: But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for hm that a millstone were hanged about his neck and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."


• 10: Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones


• 19: 14 "suffer the little children and forbid them not"


• Or how about JESUS' COMMANDMENT: love one another, as I have loved you, that ye also LOVE ONE ANOTHER? (And hey, "by THIS shall ye all men know that ye are my disciples.") So, if you hate your child, or do not SHOW LOVE to your child, then clearly you cannot call yourself a follower or believer of Christ. I'm just saying.


• Matt 5:46, from the Sermon on the Mount, you know, when Jesus basically had a big church service? "For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye?"

You don't want to listen to Jesus? Just the folks after his death that liked to lay claim to knowing another man's mind? Alrighty.

• How about in Corinthians (1 Cor 13:11) when it's clear that children and men aren't the same, nor is it to be expected that they ACT the same? (When I was a child, I spake as a child, blah blah.)


• Or Titus 2:4 "teach the young women to be sober [...] to LOVE THEIR CHILDREN." picking up in 13, "looking for that blessed HOPE."


• Romans 13: 17, 19 "For the kingdom of God is [...] righteousness, and peace, and joy..." "Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another."

Or how about John, who said (I John 2: 12) "I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake."

So, okay, she wants to follow the Psalms, fine. But why not 113:9? "Be a JOYFUL mother of children?"

I can't think of much in this world that is more despicable than someone claiming their "god" wants them to treat another like shit, especially when that person is a child. If you honestly believe that your "god" has commanded you to sit a little, tender, unlearned body down and reinforce every single god damned day that they are bad, that they can never be good, that they are WRETCHED, then not only do I say fuck you, but fuck your god, the horse (donkey?) they rode in on, the man that owns the barn to shelter said beast, fuck the man that made the road, the man that raised the crops, the sandal maker, the church builder, the tithes collector, and the guy passing out palm fronds to the other wackadoo believers. And fuck you, twice as hard and as long.

And this isn't some isolated incident. If you haven't seen "Jesus Camp," then that's pretty much their M.O. Look, I'm not a Christian. I'm not a believer in any kind of supernatural being that created us, set things in motion, nada. But I get it, I get why people do. And I studied the Christian faith growing up, pretty hard core. If I can get it, why can't these people? And hasn't everyone at least HEARD of "Carrie?" I can see your dirty pillows!!

(I just found out that there are books that are VERY POPULAR that teach you to SPANK your children, because the bible says to do it - check the fifth paragraph about how sinful your kids are. I notice that everyone glosses over the "stone your son to death if he offends you" and to do it publicly, listed in Deuteronomy. Hey, let's not pick and choose, let's do all the edicts of the Bible, right? *eyerolll*)

Incidentally? Spanking DOESN'T WORK. It just makes angry children. Just thought I'd mention that, as a mother.

EVEN NED FLANDERS DIDN'T SPANK. Are you saying you're more righteous than Ned Diddly-Iddly Flanders?? (Hahahaha.)

And people wonder how I can be an atheist... Again, if you're the kind of Christian that's living your life based on the actual words of Jesus, my hat's off to you. He was a cool dude that had beautiful and loving things to say. This woman? I'd smack her about the head with her own Bible. Please note that she's a MENTAL HEALTH NURSE. Who doesn't believe in teaching children about self-esteem. Uh huh. I'm thinking she's not due for any kind of promotion. Nor should she be allowed to keep her job until she gets her thick skull examined.



Summary: "Remember, Jesus would rather constantly shame gays than let orphans have a family." ~Stephen Colbert
"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." ~Gene Roddenberry

In the name of Jesus Christ, AMEN. ;)

Comments

[sdwolfpup.livejournal.com]

It certainly seems like a lot of Christians believe the Old Testament trumps the New. Which is really a shame; I have no problem with Jesus. I wish more people would actually be like him.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

I'm actually a big fan of Jesus. He said wonderful and loving things, and I still think the Beatitudes are worth living by.

How people who claim to love Jesus can forget that HE HIMSELF said that he was bringing in a higher law, meaning, his words trumped the OT... Bah.

[drusplace.livejournal.com]

"I do not believe in teaching children self esteem or that they should feel good about themselves, because they should not. "

I couldn't even read the rest of what that woman wrote. Can I please help beat her with a stick? One that has nails in it? And I know what I just typed does not follow my personal beliefs (and I would never actually do it) BUT it was my gut reaction.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Oh, isn't that just the most horrible thing?! The poor child is FOUR.

Gut reaction is fine. And hey, since she wants to follow the old testament style of discipline, it's only fitting that SHE be disciplined in the same manner. ;) *readies stones*

[rflong.livejournal.com]

I noticed the "I am a Mental Health Nurse" but my brain cunningly left three words out of that sentence.

And dear God! The comments! How wonderful. A four year old knows she's a wretched little girl full of sin. Break out the tambourines.

Never been a fan of St. Paul. Now I recall why... Ugh.

Some people...

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Not a fan of Paul AT ALL. There's where a vast majority of homophobia, racism, and sexism stems from. Yay? Big fan of Jesus, not so much of a lot of his disciples.

I read the post last night, and I've not been able to stop thinking about that poor little girl. Atrocious.

[furikku.livejournal.com]

I want these people to stop saying they are on my side.

I also want that T-shirt to exist. I would buy it.

Never understood the spanking thing. I was never spanked, and I turned out a lot better than some of my acquaintances who were. So, there's something, anyway.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

I know, right? They're giving the good Christians a bad name.

Hahaha, wouldn't that be a great T?

Spanking just makes angry and fearful children. I'm not prefect, and I've spanked my son in the past, and quickly felt horrible and sad for having given in to my own anger. There are far better (and loving) ways to discipline a child, imo.

[z-k.livejournal.com]

"We are born with a desire to sin. We are all born God hating and evil. "
OK.. WHAT?

..."she was a sinner, she could not control her sinful nature. She wanted to be good but she could not, instead she did things that where wrong no matter how she tried to be good. "
And this evil evil sinner is four years old? Pray tell me, what kind of sins four year olds are capable these days?

But the gem would be "She is a wretched little girl, who knows she is a wretched sinner who needs only a good saviour to help her."

OMG. What is wrong with this woman? She says she loves God, bla bla bla, but she hates her own child so much. Really Christian of her.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

There is so much wrong with this woman, you can barely find what is RIGHT.

And yeah - that word, Christian... I don't think she understands what it means. WOW.

But come on: four year olds are TOTALLY sinners. They're all about the prostitution, the murder, the selling of drugs to their play date mates... Let's be honest. ;)

[stephanierb.livejournal.com]

I couldn't bring myself to read the whole thing. The quotes from the text referred to in some of the comments just turned my stomach.

Count me in as someone who hates that these people give Christians a bad name. I'm torn about my faith: I was raised a Catholic and find the teachings of Jesus to be inspirational, and yet I find many "Christians" don't even follow his message. I feel that a large part of the blame should be placed on the institutions - a lot of preaching is done about the sins of homosexuality and abortion, but very little is done about love and forgiveness. Although, in all fairness, it's been a long time since I've been inside a church.

What a horrible person that woman is. Ugh.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

My hope is that more Christians who feel as you do will take your religion back from the snake handlers that seem to be running the current show.

And we're agreed that the woman I linked to is just a horrible person.

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

That poor poor little girl who wil grow up not understanding why she is not good enough to make her mother love her.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Oh, your comment, while true, just makes my heart ache. That's exactly what will happen. :(

[anelith.livejournal.com]

That post just made me want to lay my head down on the desk and cry. For her kids, for any children they might pass along their trauma to, and for any mental health patients that might suffer under her "care." And for sheer frustration reading all the comments to her, and her response? Because all the comments saying how evil it was to treat her child this way -- and she comes right back with, "Yes, I *am* evil, we all are..."

*headdesk times a million*

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Isn't that just heart breaking? The sad thing is that I can SEE that little girl in my head, asking why she can never be good. So, so sad.

The poster's response was BAFFLING! "Yep, I am evil. I can't help it. So I'll tell my daughter early on that SHE is so we all know that nothing can be done without Jesus..."

THIS is a very good example as to why I do not believe in a Sky Bully. (I just hugged my kids until they got irritated with me last night.)

[jerusha]

*sigh* Yeah. I don't have a lot of faith in corporal punishment. The "I'm disappointed in you" tactic worked a lot better for me, and spanking never worked on my brother.

What gets me about that original post is that she doesn't think that her 4 year old is old enough to understand salvation, etc. If she isn't old enough to understand the general principles behind salvation, why the hell would she be mature enough to understand the theology of salvation? Sure, we're all sinful, but kids tend to live up to expectations. If you expect your kid to be sinful and awful, and you hammer home the idea that they'll never be good enough, sooner or later they won't try.

Besides, salvation (speaking as a Christian) isn't about being good. It's about grace, and knowing that God loves you no matter what you do. There's a reason we teach little kids the song, "Jesus loves you, this I know." IMHO, that's pretty much all a little one needs to know about God. This mother's approach promotes legalism, which is bullshit.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

I have a hard time with the "disappointment" line, but that's because of my mother, not because of the philosophy behind the tactic. But really, just about anything is better than corporal punishment, imo.

Re: your second paragraph. EXACTLY! She can't teach her child about salvation and all the GOOD things that Christ taught, but she can focus on the mud people/sinner/unholy vessel crap? WTF?

I disagree on the "we're all sinful" because of my issues with the word "sin." I'm not religious, and I look at behavior in a secular fashion. We're not born understanding social norms, we must be taught, simple as that. you can't fault someone for not knowing what's expected of them, if you don't teach them, yadda yadda.

But I do agree with you on what salvation means. The grace issue needs to be taught more, and that no matter what you do, you need that, and it's a GIFT. (Keep in mind, atheist. *points to self*) But if I were to be a Christian, that's how I'd go about it.

[thebratqueen.livejournal.com]

What you said. CHRIST.

No pun intended.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

HAHAHAHAHA, whatev, that pun was TOTALLY intended. And I approve. :D

[a2zmom.livejournal.com]

That is just a horrible attitude to have towards one's child. I can't imagine teaching a child to hate themselves like that. Sick, just sick.

Of course, Judaism believes that until a child is 13 (ie, Bar/Bat Mitzvahed) all moral failings are strictly on the head of the parent. It's your job to provide teachings in right vs wrong because your child is too young to undersatnd that biting his friend is the wrong way to go about things.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

It's amazingly sick, and had me sad all last night.

I COMPLTELY agree with the concept you just outlined about children being children and their faults are on the heads of the parents for a time. (Interestingly enough, LDS follows that ideal somewhat, with the exception of the age of accountability being 8, not 13. I'm more inclined to lean your way.)

Bad behavior in children isn't evil, it's from an older person's BAD EXAMPLE.

[essene.livejournal.com]

I think my whole problem with Christianity is the whole literal interpretation thing.

I've talked with DT about this and the whole reading the bible as FACT thing didn't begin hardcore in Christianity until after the Enlightenment as a reaction to all the scientific theory.

I don't dispute that there are figures and events in the bible that are historical and accurate - King David, Moses, Roman rule of Jerusalem, etc. But the idea that the bible (or any other holy book) is the ACTUALLY untainted "word of GOD"? Yeah, no. Especially because it's been edited and re-edited so many times by so many different people (the first being RJE that it's ridiculous to think that any of it is uncorrupted--even if it were the word of god.

Also, if you look at the Jewish tradition, even they don't take the Torah at face value. Hence the Talmud and the insanely intense study just to discuss it--no one ever really talks about UNDERSTANDING it as it is. Everything must be over layed with discussion and interpretation and how to apply it to daily life in a changing world.

What bothers me most is this insistence by evangelical/fundamentalist/fantatical Christians that the words contained in that book are not affected by the lives and times of the people who wrote them. That the rules about what you should eat, or what Revelation means are TRUFAX and have nothing to do with trying not to get sick in a time of sketchy sanitation, or no refridgerators or being oppressed by Romans.

Yeah, I don't have issues with reading the bible as fact at ALL.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

I have BIG problems with that literal interpretation crap, too.

And you're exactly right: it wasn't MEANT to be taken literally, and certainly the Hebrews - um, the precursor to the first Christians, minus that whole "the Savior is here!" thing - understood that the scriptures were meant to be discussed and wrestled with, to some extent. It's a bunch of METAPHOR, people. You hit on this precisely!

Your icon makes me both laugh and sigh, because there are people who just don't get it...

[julia-here.livejournal.com]

There are way too many people in the world who never get around to reading the Gospels because they're like Hamlet, all full of quotes. I got into this whole Christianity thing through people from an old tradition, where kids were given littlecopies of the Gospels with Christ's words in red letters; I also had a Quaker grandmother who talked to me about listening for the voice of God within you and how to distinguish it from the voice of pride and anger. And not to go around looking for sin, in myself nor others, because that was a violation of the great commandment.

It's too much fun to cast the first stone for people to give it up, I fear.

Julia, imperfect but trying

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

"it's too much fun to cast the first stone for people to give it up, I fear"

That's it, in a nutshell, I think. And now I'm thinking of The Life of Brian and the stoning scene...

[porridgebird.livejournal.com]

I was raised just like that lady's "wretched little girl."

If I get started on this subject, I'll go on all day. Probably all week. Just, thank you for this post.

I've already given "Jean" a piece of my mind. Not that she'll listen. I'm appalled at how much support she has over there.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

oh, you poor dear. *hugs you to bits*

You ARE NOT inherently bad, you are a lovely, beautiful living being that is worthy of goodness and love BACK.

Whenever you get low, go back to that and read it out loud. (But remember that the majority of the comments over there are that Jean is crazycakes.)

[jennem.livejournal.com]

SHE DOESN'T BELIEVE IN HELPING HER CHILD ACHIEVE A HIGH SELF-ESTEEM.

o.O

I'm going to sit here and boggle over that for the rest of my natural life.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

i know, right?!?! The woman is SHAMEFUL.

[moosesal.livejournal.com]

The two things that freaked me the most about that post? Exactly what you mention at the end: 1) that she's a "mental health nurse". OMG. Those poor patients. I just ... *shudder* and 2) I do not believe in teaching children self esteem or that they should feel good about themselves, because they should not. - WTF? ARE YOU KIDDING? Oh no, let's not encourage our children to have self-esteem.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Never has your icon been more useful.

I like how she's completely negating the TEACHINGS OF CHRIST. By teaching your child that she has no value, you're saying that god made something of no value. And now I'm thinking of the "God don't make no trash" mindset, and while not a Christian, I can get behind THAT sentiment, at least.

[dusty273.livejournal.com]

Is that woman for real? *shudders* I feel so bad for her children, being raised to think they're evil simply because they exist.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Isn't it shameful? I think of your beautiful, sweet girls, and that they have become that way because their mother LOVES them.

How this mother can't see that she needs to act in kind.... Ugh.

[redbrickrose.livejournal.com]

That's just disgusting.

And, okay, I was raised Presbyterian, right, so I get the whole "people are sinners, salvation is up to God" thing. I don't need to get into my religion Issues here for lo, they are complex,* but the thing is, even when that idea was stressed, it was stressed to point out that the believer's role in salvation is thankfulness because God is just and forgiving and yes, you are going to mess up, but you know what? That's okay. It was supposed to be comforting, not supposed to make people feel like shit. So, like, her basic premise is something I can kind of grok, almost, but if that's where she's coming from, and I can't tell because you never can with fundies, she is EPICALLY missing the point of the idea of a covenant of grace.

That's emotional child abuse as far as I'm concerned. (Maybe physical too, I didn't read the whole thing, but from the comments, I'm getting that there was at least spanking go on as well).

*Short version: that is not to say that's what I believe now. I don't believe in much of anything now, at least as far as any kind of literal truth goes; I still consider myself religious more because of my family and because the history of the faith community means a lot to me.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Your second paragraph: I do thinks that's what this woman SHOULD be following, if she's going to go the "we're all sinners" route. And yes, she's COMPLETELY missing the point of grace, yes.

Oh, she's TOTALLY spanking her child. Abuse, plain and simple. All kinds, too. UGLINESS!!!

[lynnenne]

I am better than Ned Flanders! DIDDLY!

That woman is cracked. Thank you for posting those quotes. I have read the gospels, and it always amazes me how words like "love," "peace" and "forgiveness" are so conveniently forgotten by so many "Christians."

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

Okay, you might be the only one that is, though.

"Dear Neighbor:
I love you.
You are my brother.
[incoherenet laughter from Homer]"

She is TOTALLY cracked. And yeah - they always gloss over the GOOD stuff. WHY?!?

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

Woman, I love you!

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

BACK AT YA! <3

[brunettepet.livejournal.com]

That woman is angling to be a guest on "Dr. Phil" in about ten years. She'll be accompanied by her sullen 14 year old daughter who has been taught that she can never be good enough, so why bother trying?

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

I'm blown away that she's from the UK - I thought they tended towards the more temperate attitudes...

Oh, the rebellion her daughter will most assuredly go through!

[cityphonelines.livejournal.com]

Wow. I cannot believe this shi-... no, wait, unfortunately, I CAN believe, but it saddens, angers and disgusts me, but Stoney, seriously, you HAVE to stop using knowledge and logic and actual CITATIONS FROM THE WORLD'S REIGNING BEST SELLING BOOK to prove points. That will only serve to confuse and upset those that choose to misinterpret. *koff*

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

I KEEP FORGETTING WE'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO USE LOGIC, WHOOPS!

And it's sad that I can believe it, too. GAH, people stop being so stupid!!!

[ruthless1.livejournal.com]

That blog actually gave me a stomach ache. I have to eat some yoghurt to try and settle it down.
*holds sore tummy*
I just finished my degree in religious studies so I could learn how to combat this kind of thinking. But - with someone as brainwashed as that? All you can do is pick up the pieces after she's woven her web of destruction and hopefully, help her child when she can get away from that kind of evil thinking. Just reading it has forced me to use grammatically incorrect English and run-on sentences.
*goes off to review some basic rules of English*

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

You're just right in that the only answer now is to help her children learn that they were taught the wrong ideals. BAH.

And side note, I didn't know that you had a degree in religious studies! What a fascinating study - I've made a hobby of it, but one day I'd quite like to go back and go deeper in my studies.

[oatmellow.livejournal.com]

that poor little girl. I'm so sad for her present and her future.

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

I know, right? I hugged and hugged my kids last night. I just don't even know how to start with people like that...

[tabaqui]

This woman is grotesque. It's people like her - and the Plowman person - and all the people who support them that make me loathe Xians and everything they stand for.

I try *not* to - my mother is Lutheran, goes to church, believes. But then someone like this comes along and i want to just firebomb every fucking holy-roller asshole out there.

*spits*

[stoney321.livejournal.com]

It's good to read comments from people that are Christian and see that she's insane - it helps me remember that all Christians aren't crazy cakes, it's just a very vocal minority.